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Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 226 of 327 (650612)
02-01-2012 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Evlreala
01-31-2012 11:50 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Evlreala writes:
To be fair, at 9 months if it's still a fetus and is about to be born the question of abortion has long sense not been an issue...
You still have the issue of Intact dilation and extraction or partial birth abortion at 9 months.
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 227 of 327 (650615)
02-01-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Kairyu
01-30-2012 6:35 PM


Re: Previous thread/s
WSW24 writes:
I'm a bit uneasy on abortion myself, but even then the contrast between the pro-life picture of God loathing abortion, and the uncaring processes of nature are a bit glaring. Even aside from the topic of abortion the zygote death rate is a huge difficulty in determining life as ''it has a soul, so it's life'' terms in the Christian context. How do you harmonize all of this?
I also have a difficult time accepting the loss of zygotes per the articles, but I believe there are some phenomen that the human beings will never know and that in my opinion is God's will. My prayer is that those zygots are in a better place.
Once again I stress that I believe the soul comes into being at the beginning of life, but of course, I can't prove that. That is God's will not ours to know.
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 228 of 327 (650616)
02-01-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Granny Magda
01-30-2012 2:26 AM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Granny Magda writes:
Anyway, Godwin's Law applies. You mentioned Hitler, thus you lose.
Not familar with that law, but I don't think it a good idea to forget or never mention Hilter.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 229 of 327 (650617)
02-01-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by shadow71
02-01-2012 12:02 PM


Occupy Reality - We Are The 40 Percent.....
If 60 percent of human souls ends up in a better place as part of God’s will without ever having physically existed as anything more than a few cells or having any comprehension of physical existence one has to wonder what the point of the other 40 percent of us is.
I am the 40%.....

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 230 of 327 (650620)
02-01-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by bluegenes
01-29-2012 9:20 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
She wrote an opinion piece for a non-scientific publication in which she claims, quite literally, that a zygote is a human being. Read the article.There is nothing scientific in it that actually supports her view.
A zygote is not a human being by definition, just as an acorn is not an oak tree by definition.
Where may I find that definition?
She took the definiton of organism from a dictionary. p6. An organism is defined as (1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function
in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.22 In the paper she explains why the sperm and egg prior to fusion is devoted to the actual fusion.
After the fusion the zygote intitates a program of development that will become through formation, excluding accident, or external intervention, that will form a body, birth and all the human being development such as childhood, adolescencem maturity, aging and death.
That is a scientific explanation.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 231 of 327 (650622)
02-01-2012 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Straggler
01-30-2012 6:25 PM


Re: "Human Life"
Straggler writes:
Do you accept that natural abortions are the biggest killer of "human life" known to man?
If so - What do you suggest we do about his tragic majority? Anything at all?
I have read the paper and I cannot dispute it.
I hope science is working on a remedy, if in fact there can be a remedy, but I don't see how that justifies an intentional abortion.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 232 of 327 (650623)
02-01-2012 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by shadow71
02-01-2012 12:29 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Sorry but that is simply word salad and pea palming.
Do you see the phrase "...will become through formation..." in what you posted?
If something "will become" something else then it is not yet that thing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 233 of 327 (650624)
02-01-2012 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by shadow71
02-01-2012 12:29 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.
But while the fetus is dependent on the mother for survival, it would seem to fail this part of the definition, would it not.
Not to mention, until differentiation, there are no different organs, again failing this part.
At best, it would seem that the fetus is a part of the mother, meaning she can have it removed, if she wants.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 234 of 327 (650625)
02-01-2012 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Meddle
01-31-2012 6:17 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
Malcolm writes:
The only difference is in the way the genes in those cells are expressed, but here again she tries to equivocate by suggesting that the cells in the developing embryo are working towards some grand plan to produce a mature human body. But what is really happening is as the cells multiply they interact with their neighbours, causing variation in their gene expression and altering the trajectory of their daughter cells into gradually more specific tissue types. It just so happens that these local interactions lead to an adult human.
Have you ever seen a zygote as defined in her paper develop into any organism except a human being?
So I don't agree that "It just so happens that these local interactions lead to an adult human."

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 235 of 327 (650634)
02-01-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by shadow71
02-01-2012 12:29 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
shadow71 writes:
Where may I find that definition?
Zygote Definition and Examples - Biology Online Dictionary
I'll leave you to find me a dictionary definition of "human being" or "person" that includes the phrase "a cell".
shadow71 writes:
She took the definiton of organism from a dictionary. p6. An organism is defined as (1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function
in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.22 In the paper she explains why the sperm and egg prior to fusion is devoted to the actual fusion.
After the fusion the zygote intitates a program of development that will become through formation, excluding accident, or external intervention, that will form a body, birth and all the human being development such as childhood, adolescencem maturity, aging and death.
That is a scientific explanation.
It is indeed a scientific explanation of a stage in human development that can lead to the existence of a person, and, as you point out, eventually a corpse.
That does not mean that a zygote is a person or a corpse.
Do you still not understand my point that her scientific description does not lead to her philosophical conclusion?
I explained that if an "X" can potentially become a "Y" through a process of transformation, the "X" is not a "Y" until the transformation has taken place.
You don't seriously consider yourself to be a corpse, do you?
Easy concepts related to transformation for beginners.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 236 of 327 (650654)
02-01-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by shadow71
02-01-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Previous thread/s
I also have a difficult time accepting the loss of zygotes per the articles....
My prayer is that those zygots are in a better place.
I have to call Poe on this (and on you in general). Either that, or you have absolutely zero clue what a zygote is.... I'd venture a guess that if we showed you a picture of an amoeba and told you it was a human zygote you'd both believe it AND realize that you had never seen one before.
hint: a zygote is not a cute fluffy little baby.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 237 of 327 (650655)
02-01-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by hooah212002
02-01-2012 4:42 PM


Re: Previous thread/s
Either that, or you have absolutely zero clue what a zygote is.
Maybe he just dreams of a heaven full of cells floating around, unseen, unknown and unaware of their place in paradise.
Or maybe, they're food for the Heaven Whales who filter them out of the ether.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 238 of 327 (650662)
02-01-2012 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by bluegenes
02-01-2012 2:02 PM


Re: So what was the point of this thread?
bluegenes writes:
I explained that if an "X" can potentially become a "Y" through a process of transformation, the "X" is not a "Y" until the transformation has taken place.
When does a human being become a human being in your mind?
I would also like to see some support for your opinion.
I like the "I explained" part of your answer. Once you say it I guess all dialogue stops and the omniscient one has spoken the truth?
Get a life.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 239 of 327 (650663)
02-01-2012 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by hooah212002
02-01-2012 4:42 PM


Re: Previous thread/s
Juvenile replies will not be responded to.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 240 of 327 (650664)
02-01-2012 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Perdition
02-01-2012 4:47 PM


juvenile posts
juvenile posts will not be responded to.

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