God the father

I fully appreciate that. But I'm not really so interested in exegesis of a particular verse as I am the concept in general.

But the concept itself can only be supported by taking passages out of context.

Okay. Thanks!

Which concept, the "loving God," or the "unbelievers burn forever?" Last I knew, both of those concepts were well supported and contradicted in the Bible, depending on whether you're limiting "consistency" to a single book or the entire collected canon.On Hell:

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Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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Matthew 18:8-9
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

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Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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Matthew 25:41, 46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

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Mark 9:43-48
... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

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Luke 16:22-24
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

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John 5:28-29
The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

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Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

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Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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On a loving God:

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John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

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1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

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And on a God who doesn;t actually love everyone:

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Leviticus 20:23
And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

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Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

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Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

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Proverbs 6:16, 19
These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

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Does God love us? Does God hate us? Does he love the ones he condemns to burn forever in the lake of fire? Other?

Yup, quote mining and taking passages out of concept.As I said.

Then by all means show us what the passages mean in context. If you think they mean something else when context is included, the onus is on you to support that assertion. I'd very much like to see the reason you believe the passages that support the existence of Hell as a place of eternal punishment in fire are simply "out of context."Two-line replies make for a poor debate, Jar. This isn't an instant message application.

I was not the person that created a laundry list of passages taken out of context and, perhaps wrongly, I assumed that you were capable of looking at them in context as well as actually reading what I write.Perhaps you are not.Had you actually read what I had written in this thread you might have noticed that in Message 15 I said:

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However, condemning those you hate to eternal suffering is not inconsistent with what many folk did believe at various times; even today we see folk asserting that position. Nor are religious beliefs necessarily consistent. In fact, inconsistency could be said to be a hallmark of religious beliefs.

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If you like we can step through your laundry list and look at each one in context and see if they would be covered in what I have already posted in this thread.

Yes, he, Jehovah, the only evident existing god resides in some specific location of our Universe, according to the Biblical record. He's god of all, father of holy Spirit born humans who willingly call upon him, receiving the salvation which he offers all who repent of sin, receiving his son, Jesus, as lord and savior.He is described as having perfect love, perfect mercy and perfect justice for all. Justice does not always exonerate. Perfect justice condemns the guilty. We all are guilty, but Jesus filled the role of sacrificial lamb of God, took our guilt upon himself, dying for us that we may live. Thus, no more animal sacrifices, he the guiltless, dying for all that whoever will may be saved. That's the gospel of salvation which loving Jehovah offers, willing that none perish but that all would come to repentance. He is described as slow to anger, not willing that any should perish, Jesus coming, not to condemn the world (John 3:17) but to save all who would believe in him and come to him. The NT says believers in Jesus are God's children. Regarding punishment, it says "Whom he loves, he chastens." One only chastens one's own because he loves them.On the whole, however, he has turned into an intelligent, compassionate, caring young man, one that, with all the hubris of a parent, I am proud of.I cannot imagine anything that he could do that would make me want him to spend eternity suffering. It seems that one of the biggest transgressions one can commit against a god is to deny his existence. If my son were to disown me and never want to have anything to do with me again, I would be profoundly sad. There may be nothing that would make me sadder. But I certainly wouldn't want my son to suffer for the rest of this life, much less for all of eternity, just because he disowned me. I might be very angry at him depending on his reasons for disowning me. But wish him to suffer? No. I love him too much to ever want to see him suffer for anything. His well being is more important to me than my own. So the very idea of wanting him to suffer because he offended me is ludicrous beyond words. Again, he's only father to those who have submitted themselves to him to be their father. He chastens his own children so that they may not be condemned with the ones who have rejected him.

Hi SubbieI’ll have a go at this. I think the concept of God being anthropomorphized as father, (or parent if you like), is appropriate. With our own children we guide them in the direction that we want to see them go but in the end they are responsible for their own decisions. As parents we do all we can to help them, but in the end we have to accept their decisions both good and bad.Yes I agree that there is an ultimate judgement but I don’t see God’s judgement manifesting itself in the same manner as we would a court of law. If you go to an online concordance and enter the word heart and hearts you will see that there are just over 700 occurrences of this word with over 580 occurrences in the NT. The Bible when taken in its entire context is clear that what God desires of us is that we have kind, merciful, forgiving and loving hearts. Jesus came as the Messiah, the one who was to be King. And how did he reign? He reigned by humbly serving mankind. He took the lowest role of that era in the simple washing of the disciple’s feet.I think that we all agree that we have a conscience. How about we consider that conscience that we have as God’s still small voice speaking to us. We might even call that His Holy Spirit. We all make decisions on a regular basis that involve not only ourselves but that will also have ramifications for the lives of others. When we make decisions that are essentially based on selfish love it helps to form a pattern which makes it easier to make a similar choice the next time as well. If we make a decision based on loving unselfishly or even sacrificially, then it is more likely that we will make it more natural that we would choose unselfishly in the future. In other word over time we establish a trajectory of self love, (looking out for number one, or if it feels good do it) or we can establish a trajectory of loving unselfishly or sacrificially.Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 10:

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"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

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It is not a matter of keeping any laws. As Jesus said, there is only the law of love. It all hangs on that. We can’t just decide to have loving hearts. It has to become part of who we are as we respond to that still small voice until it starts to become natural to us.It is my belief that when we act justly in kindness and love towards others we establish a trajectory that leads us to an eternal existence with our loving Father figure. When we act unjustly and unlovingly, we establish a trajectory that leads to eternal separation from God. We can speculate what either existence will look like but it is just speculation. The Jews often used the image of the local dump to represent what hell would be like. In the end we have the free will to make our own choices, and the choice is about a choice of the heart not a theological one.I think that Christians would agree that the greatest sermon even given was Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and it is plain in there with such statements as blessed are the merciful that it is about the heart and not the head. Jesus doesn’t dwell on what happens at the end of time but where he does in the separating of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 He is clear that the ones who are found to be righteous are the ones who looked after and loved the needy without understanding that in loving that way they were loving God as incarnate in Jesus.So in the end we choose heaven or hell. We can rise above selfishness and continually move towards Christ likeness or we can succumb to selfishness and continue to move further from God. IMHO God has chosen to use mankind as His stewards of creation and in the end His judgement will be accomplished by us as well. We will be the judges of our own future. As C S Lewis says:

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There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.

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Edited by GDR, : typo

Wonderful sermon, padre. But you never really addressed my question.Do sinners go to hell and suffer for eternity?

I think I answered your question as far as I'm prepared to speculate. I see hell as being separation from God in an existence characterized by self love as compared to an existence in God's company and characterized by unselfish love.I know there are those who can quote Bible verses about fire etc but I contend that that is Jewish apocalyptic language describing something that is not only indescribable in human terms but essentially unknowable.I suggest that for most of us separation from God would constitute suffering but maybe not for all. We just aren't going to have all the answers in this life time.Frankly IMHO Christians should quit worrying about heaven and hell so much and focus more on living a life of service and love for others. That is what we are called to. In the end we are to have faith that there will be perfect justice as instituted by a loving God/Father and let it go at that.

Hi subbie, And just as you wouldn't want him to suffer, God did not want you to suffer.You seem to be under the impression that a person has to do something in order to be condemned to the lake of fire. When the truth is all mankind was condemned to the lake of fire when the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God in the Garden. Mankind is condemned already. He has to do nothing to be cast into the lake of fire that is his final resting place.But God loved mankind so much He was willing to take on the form of a man we call Jesus and come down to Earth and live and go to the cross and die so you and I and anyone else who would trust Him and take Him at His Word could have a right relationship with Him. Just like the man in the Garden had before he disobeyed God.Do you deserve to go to Heaven? NoDo I even though I have trusted God to give me eternal life by accepting His full pardon deserve to go to Heaven? NoNo one deserves to go to Heaven.That is the reason we go to Heaven by the grace of Almighty God.So quit blaming God for your problems and all the problems in the world. He did not make the mess we find ourselves in, we did.He simply made a way we can escape the slavery and the bondage of sin brought on by the disobedience of one man. You can read the entire chapter and chapter 6 if you want a fuller explanation.Everyone is condemned to the lake of fire. ALREADYTo escape one must believe God, take Him at His Word and accept the free full pardon He paid for on the cross of Calvary.You probably won't like the answer to your question, but you did ask the question.So if you spend eternity in the lake of fire it won't be God's fault. You will have no one to blame but yourself.God did love you and died for you to be able to spend eternity in Heaven.All you have to do is receive the gift He has offered to you in the form of a free full pardon.The ball is in your court. It is your choice.God Bless,

Well isnt god grate if i love him and accept him believe in him on the basis of bronze age writings i wont go in to hell for eternal torment you know the place he created for people like me.Its like your dad saying if you dont love accept me believe me even when im stoned drunk im gona make you wish you had never been borne.

As evidenced by Jesus dying on the Cross we know that God loves us. John 3:16You're right tho, He's not Father to you. He can be. He's God and Judge to you right now. Until you recieve His forgivness that He provided for you on the Cross when Jesus died for your sins He's not your Father.

Sorry but if what you posted is true then the god you are trying to market is simply petty, vile, evil and certainly unworthy of anything more than contempt.