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Author Topic:   God the father
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3448 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 46 of 117 (652179)
02-12-2012 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
02-12-2012 8:45 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
quote:
I would hope that somehow I'm wrong, but that's not what either Jesus or the apostles taught. They all spoke in terms of eternal suffering. A couple of examples coming to mind are the rich man in hell and when Jesus advised that if one's eye offend him, pluck it out rather to have it cast into the lake of fire. The same with the hand. Elsewhere it is described as a place where the "worm dies not" and there's "gnawing and gnashing of the teeth." etc.
By Rich Man, I'm assuming you mean the parable that starts at Luke 16:20. The point of the Beggar Man/Rich Man story is that our final judgment is not based on our wealth or position in society. We can be condemned for misusing our resources. The Greek Hades is just the backdrop to the story. Both the Beggar and the Rich Man were in Hades. All the dead go to Hades.
Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
The reference here is Gehenna, not Hades. The valley became the cities incinerator and a vivid symbol of destruction and an abomination. Apparently they even added sulphur or brimstone to keep the fires burning continuously. The fire burned continuously, the criminals weren't tortured continuously.
If one was thrown into Gehenna, one was a criminal. The point was to get rid of that which causes one to stumble and prevent one from becoming a criminal. This was not a visual of eternal torment. It was a visual of a dishonorable death.
You need to provide the specific scriptures. I think you're paraphrasing and it is difficult to address an issue when you're mixing pieces.
quote:
The alternative to eternal hell fire is bliss beyond imagination.
Where does Jesus teach this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2012 8:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3448 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 47 of 117 (652180)
02-12-2012 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by subbie
02-12-2012 11:25 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
quote:
I imagine that you think that your conception is a natural consequence of the idea that God gave us free will to accept or reject him. The consequence of death and the end of existence is nothing more than the result of exercising one's free will and rejecting God.
I don't really understand your point. We all die.
quote:
Consider a child who has overdosed on some drug. That child's death is the consequence of his free choice to decide to use drugs. If your child were to overdose, wouldn't you do everything in your power to keep your child from dying? I think any loving parent would. How is this different from a loving God letting some die and some live forever, just because his vanity was pricked?
A hypothetical situation doesn't really work well if the scenario isn't the same.
It isn't about God stopping anyone from dying, everyone dies; it is about who will be restored to life.
A parent can only do so much to help their child survive or succeed in life. Ultimately the child has to want to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by subbie, posted 02-12-2012 11:25 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 02-12-2012 9:01 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 48 of 117 (652183)
02-12-2012 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by purpledawn
02-12-2012 7:50 PM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
A parent can only do so much to help their child survive or succeed in life.
Not when the parent is supposed to be omnipotent.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2012 7:50 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Chuck77, posted 02-13-2012 4:29 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2012 6:27 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 49 of 117 (652213)
02-13-2012 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
02-12-2012 2:09 PM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
Jar,
I have to admit I don't get it...
quote:
The Bible also tells us the humans are capable of determining what is just and that when god is being unjust, humans need to dope slap the boy and set her straight.
It seems to me that none of this demonstrates that god is ever unjust or that man can judge him. I read it as a conversation that paraphrases something like this...
Genesis 18...
GOD: If the Sodomites are still naughty, they'll be FUBAR
ABRAHAM: But isn't roasting the nice with the naughty bad ju ju? That's not like you. What if there's fifty nice people in there, huh?
GOD: If there's fifty, I won't cook 'em.
ABRAHAM: What about forty five? Or forty?
GOD: If there's forty five or forty, I won't cook 'em.
ABRAHAM: Please don't get cranky with me but how about thirty, twenty or ten?
GOD: If there's forty thirty, twenty or ten, I won't cook 'em.
In all seriousness, what I don't get is how this translates into "when god is being unjust, humans need to dope slap the boy and set her straight."
All I see is a demonstration that man has morality, not that he can question god and get away with it. God is simply explaining his intentions, not being corrected.
Am I missing context? I've read the bible twice but I'm not going to pretend to have a solid grounding in the text or theology.
I just don't see how your quote refers to your point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 02-12-2012 2:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 02-13-2012 9:07 AM Warthog has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 50 of 117 (652214)
02-13-2012 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by marc9000
02-12-2012 4:40 PM


quote:
The difference we're probably going to have is that you blame God for it and I don't, I blame Satan for it. What God wants, and what he allows, are completely different.
This is the problem you are going to get into when you're talking about an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent creator of everything. God is responsible for everything as he knew all things even as he was creating them.
You can't shift the blame to satan. God created satan knowing exactly what would happen. If god chooses to allow something then god is to blame.
BTW, I don't blame god for anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 02-12-2012 4:40 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Chuck77, posted 02-13-2012 4:27 AM Warthog has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 117 (652215)
02-13-2012 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Warthog
02-13-2012 4:08 AM


Warthog writes:
If god chooses to allow something then god is to blame.
Hmmm. God told Adam in the Garden not to eat of the tree of good and evil.
God told Adam. He warned Adam what would happen if He ate from it.
You say this would be Gods fault? How so?
Do you have any kids? Do you need an analogy to show that your statement is incorrect?
Maybe you want to reprase it because as you have it now, it's inccorect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Warthog, posted 02-13-2012 4:08 AM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Warthog, posted 02-13-2012 5:31 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 62 by jar, posted 02-13-2012 9:11 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 117 (652216)
02-13-2012 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rahvin
02-12-2012 9:01 PM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
Rahvin writes:
Not when the parent is supposed to be omnipotent.
Huh? Can you ellaborate a little more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 02-12-2012 9:01 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 53 of 117 (652218)
02-13-2012 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Chuck77
02-13-2012 4:27 AM


quote:
Do you have any kids? Do you need an analogy to show that your statement is incorrect?
Maybe you want to reprase it because as you have it now, it's inccorect.
OK, how does this work for you?
An omniscient, omnipotent god knew that Adam would eat the fruit before he created him.
The creation of Adam was the choice of a god who knew that he would sin.
He could have created an Adam who didn't sin.
It is gods fault as it was gods choice.
Free will is an illusion with an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator god. If god knows the past and future of everything, then every action must be either naturally predetermined or designed by the creator, depending on your philosophical taste.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Chuck77, posted 02-13-2012 4:27 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3448 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 117 (652221)
02-13-2012 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rahvin
02-12-2012 9:01 PM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
quote:
Not when the parent is supposed to be omnipotent.
Why does that make a difference?
Until they are adults, parents are the authority or ruler over their children.
One parent ruling more "kingdoms" doesn't change that we can only do so much to influence our children. At some point it is up to them.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Panda, posted 02-13-2012 7:01 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 55 of 117 (652223)
02-13-2012 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
02-13-2012 6:27 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
PD writes:
A parent can only do so much to help their child survive or succeed in life.
Rahvin writes:
Not when the parent is supposed to be omnipotent.
PD writes:
Why does that make a difference?
An omnipotent parent would be able to do whatever is needed to ensure their child survives and succeeds in life.
An omnipotent parent is not limited to "only do[ing] so much".
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2012 6:27 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2012 8:24 AM Panda has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 56 of 117 (652224)
02-13-2012 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chuck77
02-11-2012 6:31 AM


Re: God's not everyones Father but He is still loving
As evidenced by Jesus dying on the Cross we know that God loves us. John 3:16
Well, anyone who tortures their own son to death as part of some ritualistic display of 'love' is pretty well certifiable in my book.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 02-11-2012 6:31 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 02-13-2012 7:32 AM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 117 (652226)
02-13-2012 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
02-13-2012 7:23 AM


Re: God's not everyones Father but He is still loving
Jon writes:
Well, anyone who tortures their own son to death as part of some ritualistic display of 'love' is pretty well certifiable in my book.
God can kill anyone he wants, you see...for He can make the boo boos go away.
This whole idea of making God out to be cruel just wont cut it when taken into consideration that He can undo anything done.
Pain is simply amplified awareness...and God may well use pain to bring certain things to our awareness...but His mercy takes every overactive neuron and turns it into sugar plums.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 02-13-2012 7:23 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 02-13-2012 7:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 58 of 117 (652227)
02-13-2012 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
02-13-2012 7:32 AM


Re: God's not everyones Father but He is still loving
I suppose there is little point in trying to have a reasonable discussion about God with someone who thinks he's the 'boo boo' master who uses unspeakable pain as a delivery medium for 'sugar plums'.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 02-13-2012 7:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3448 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 59 of 117 (652276)
02-13-2012 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Panda
02-13-2012 7:01 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
quote:
PD writes:
A parent can only do so much to help their child survive or succeed in life.
Rahvin writes:
Not when the parent is supposed to be omnipotent.
PD writes:
Why does that make a difference?
An omnipotent parent would be able to do whatever is needed to ensure their child survives and succeeds in life.
An omnipotent parent is not limited to "only do[ing] so much".
You didn't answer the question. Why does omnipotence make a difference?
Why would an omnipotent parent be able to do more?
As I said in Message 47: Ultimately the child has to want to.
It isn't about God stopping anyone from dying, everyone dies; it is about who will be restored to life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Panda, posted 02-13-2012 7:01 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Panda, posted 02-13-2012 8:36 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 60 of 117 (652279)
02-13-2012 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by purpledawn
02-13-2012 8:24 AM


Re: No Suffering or Eternal Torture
PD writes:
As I said in Message 47: Ultimately the child has to want to.
No it doesn't.
A child will want to play with fire.
As a human parent, you try (and probably fail) to prevent your child from playing with fire.
As an omnipotent parent, you successfully prevent a child from playing with fire.
Their 'wants' are irrelevant.
It is a parent's duty/responsibility to ensure the well-being of their children.
Omnipotent parents wouldn't find that a difficult task.
An omnipotent parent would ensure that their children were restored to life.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2012 8:24 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2012 10:06 AM Panda has replied

  
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