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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 256 of 759 (652524)
02-14-2012 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Theodoric
02-14-2012 10:29 AM


Unless we're talking about throwing rice at a gay wedding, I don't see how this is on topic.
You mean like this post above?
Maybe you can find a thread dedicated to "liberal commie" bashing and take it there, m'kay?
Or off topic like this post? Stop wasting space!!!! LOL
Theodoric writes:
Link to original source.
The problem with that data is that it is national. Marriage is a STATE issue, it always has been. What the majority of the population thinks across the country is irrelevant.
Theodoric writes:
Simply a lie. Please show an overwhelming vote against gay marriage.
Seriously?
You can find the legend here: Same-sex marriage in the United States - Wikipedia
Pink - Statute bans same-sex marriage (9 states)
Red - Constitution bans same-sex marriage (8 states)
Dark Red - Constitution bans same-sex marriage and some or all other kinds of same-sex unions (18)
If you really want to I am sure I can look up polls and surveys in those 18 dark red states and find plenty of data where there is an overwhelming vote against gay marriage.
While it is not overwhelming (I like how you used a word that you get to decide what it means), Here in Virginia we became a dark red state: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...11/05/10/AFIy0lhG_blog.html
A: This has to be either a poor attempt at you playing some sort of Devils Advocate or you're trolling. You've always seemed at least somewhat open-minded.
LOL
You just can’t disagree with us and if you do then you are a troll and you are close minded!!!
Does anyone else see the hilarity of the consequences of having a different opinion than hooah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2012 10:29 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by subbie, posted 02-14-2012 12:24 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 257 of 759 (652533)
02-14-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Artemis Entreri
02-14-2012 11:59 AM


Marriage is a STATE issue, it always has been.
Except when it isn't. See Loving vs. Virginia.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-14-2012 11:59 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-14-2012 12:35 PM subbie has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 258 of 759 (652536)
02-14-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by subbie
02-14-2012 12:24 PM


Except when it isn't. See Loving vs. Virginia.
Especially when it is.
See: the Defense of Marriage Act.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by subbie, posted 02-14-2012 12:24 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by subbie, posted 02-14-2012 4:08 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 259 of 759 (652560)
02-14-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by nwr
02-14-2012 11:37 AM


I think you are misreading public opinion.
Not necessarily. Take a second look at the same chart, but look at 2005.
Perhaps Taz' public-opinion-barometer was last checked in the recent past. Certainly anyone could be forgiven for believing that public support for gay rights is relatively low on the basis of events in recent years, particularly the passing of Prop (h)8 in California (though granted that vote was far from "overwhelming").
Whatever their actual representation in the population, there is a very vocal subset of Americans who really do hate homosexuals, though many of them would deny that hatred (if you "support gay rights" but oppose gay marriage, you don;t really support gay rights, and there are many such people). The Mormons poured unbelievable sums of money into multiple states with gay marriage-related propositions on the ballot, including California for Prop (h)8. A scant 7 years or so ago, I witnessed a disturbing anti-gay rally right here in my own city, comprised of a hundred or so individuals (mostly looking high school age) waving signs with slogans just this side of Fred Phelps!
But look at the chart. Public support was poor just a few years ago. It's swinging in the right direction a few percentage points every year...and now we're finally starting to break the 50% mark. If we're lucky, that will actually apply to likely voters as opposed to just the population in general.
Public opinion is definitely changing, and that's both a good thing and completely expected based on civil rights trends in the past. It took courts to legalize interracial marriage and to force racial integration in schools, but after the sky once again failed to fall, public support followed, and now it's only a socially regressive ultra-minority of hatemongers who would support overturning those rulings. It (mostly) took courts to legalize ay marriage in the states that have it...but as the sky continues to not fall, public opinion will continue to sway in the favor of equality. That doesn't mean that we should just "wait it out," but it does mean that victory for the supporters of equality is nigh inevitable if we simply keep at it.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by nwr, posted 02-14-2012 11:37 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 260 of 759 (652568)
02-14-2012 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Artemis Entreri
02-14-2012 12:35 PM


Especially when it is.
See: the Defense of Marriage Act.
So you mention a federal law, defining how the federal government recognizes marriage, to support your claim that it's a state matter. Curious.
I suppose you were instead referring to that totally meaningless pandering part of the Destruction of Marriage Act where Congress purports to tell the states that they don't have to recognize marriages from other states that they don't like. That was meaningless because the Full Faith and Credit Clause doesn't require states to recognize acts of other states that contravene their public policy. It was also meaningless because Congress doesn't have the authority to restrict the effect of the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the first place.
What's more, nothing in DOMA contradicts the fact that states are not free to enact statutes relating to marriage that are unconstitutional, which was my point when I mentioned Loving v. Virginia.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-14-2012 12:35 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-15-2012 9:52 AM subbie has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 261 of 759 (652647)
02-15-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by subbie
02-14-2012 4:08 PM


So you mention a federal law, defining how the federal government recognizes marriage, to support your claim that it's a state matter. Curious.
I know its difficult for one such as yourself to understand but the federal law grants states their powers, as it is composed of the states. It's okay civics aint for everyone.
I suppose you were instead referring to that totally meaningless pandering part of the Destruction of Marriage Act where Congress purports to tell the states that they don't have to recognize marriages from other states that they don't like. That was meaningless because the Full Faith and Credit Clause doesn't require states to recognize acts of other states that contravene their public policy. It was also meaningless because Congress doesn't have the authority to restrict the effect of the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the first place.
No I was talking about the whole thing. how it defines marriage as something that is not same sex, and reaffirm full faith and credit.
What's more, nothing in DOMA contradicts the fact that states are not free to enact statutes relating to marriage that are unconstitutional, which was my point when I mentioned Loving v. Virginia.
funny then, that many states have it in their state constitutions, what the definition of marriage is. It is kind of hard to be unconstitutional when it is in your constitution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by subbie, posted 02-14-2012 4:08 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by subbie, posted 02-15-2012 11:14 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 262 of 759 (652671)
02-15-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Artemis Entreri
02-15-2012 9:52 AM


Your inability to understand that a state constitutional provision might run afoul of the federal constitution and thus be unconstitutional ironically proves the truth of your claim that "civics ain't for everyone."
I guess today's your day for self pwning. Message 123

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-15-2012 9:52 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-18-2012 6:35 PM subbie has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 263 of 759 (652770)
02-16-2012 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Theodoric
02-14-2012 10:29 AM


Theodoric writes:
Please show an overwhelming vote against gay marriage.
Here's why I said overwhelming majority.
Suppose you go to a new school where the kids in each classroom get to vote whether to keep you in their classroom or kick you out.
Each classroom has 100 kids.
You go to room A and they hold a vote. 40% vote to let you stay, 45% vote to kick you out, and the rest don't care either way so they'll go with whatever the majority decide.
You go to room B and they hold a vote. 42% vote to let you stay, 50% vote to kick you out, and the rest don't care enough to vote and will go with whatever the majority decide.
Comparative results in classrooms C, D, E, F, G. Finally, you get to classroom H and the teacher there decides to use her executive power and let you stay.
I don't care if statistics say those who voted to kick you out of their classrooms are not overwhelming. After the exact same result over and over with a significant number of people don't care what happens to you, that's as good as the overwhelming majority.
I find it disturbing that you guys don't find it disturbing that we have yet to find a state with the majority voting for equal rights.
I also find it disturbing that most people don't see this beyond gay marriage. Did black people boycott the bus company just for a damn seat? Did they protest just for a damn drinking fountain? No, that's stupid. The issue goes beyond any one particular issue.
I've explained this many times before, but you guys keep falling back to your liberal commie politically correct bullshit about this issue. So no point in explaining it again. You guys are the reason why gay rights movement is slowed down to a crawl. You're too busy trying to be politically correct to see reality as it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2012 10:29 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2012 8:55 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 265 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2012 9:06 AM Taz has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 264 of 759 (652805)
02-16-2012 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Taz
02-16-2012 12:48 AM


I don't care if statistics say those who voted to kick you out of their classrooms are not overwhelming.
Thank you for admitting you characterized the situation incorrectly.
I find it disturbing that you guys don't find it disturbing that we have yet to find a state with the majority voting for equal rights.
Oh great prognosticator it must be great o know what everyone else thinks and feels.
I also find it disturbing that most people don't see this beyond gay marriage. Did black people boycott the bus company just for a damn seat? Did they protest just for a damn drinking fountain? No, that's stupid. The issue goes beyond any one particular issue.
No shit. Have you heard of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? Marriage is on battle in the is Civil rights war.
but you guys keep falling back to your liberal commie politically correct bullshit about this issue.
WTF? What more are you expecting from us? Liberal, commie?? Really?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 12:48 AM Taz has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(3)
Message 265 of 759 (652807)
02-16-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Taz
02-16-2012 12:48 AM


I find it disturbing that you guys don't find it disturbing that we have yet to find a state with the majority voting for equal rights.
30% of South Carolinans in a poll last year voted to overturn interracial marriage, 50-some years after Loving v Virginia overturned anti-miscegenation laws. Putting a minority's rights to a popular vote has never not been a mistake.
You guys are the reason why gay rights movement is slowed down to a crawl.
Crawl? Lets look at the stuff that's happened just in the past 5 years:
Legal gay marriage in a bunch of states.
Gay inclusion in hate crimes laws.
Overturn of DADT, openly gay servicemen and women.
Federal benefits recognition of same-sex partners.
and so on. Crawl? I don't get that. The last half-decade has seen incredible progress on the gay rights front, far more than I've ever seen in my life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 12:48 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 5:37 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 266 of 759 (652899)
02-16-2012 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by crashfrog
02-16-2012 9:06 AM


crashfrog writes:
The last half-decade has seen incredible progress on the gay rights front, far more than I've ever seen in my life.
All of the mentioned rights gained are useless if the societal attitude remains the same. The fact that a political candidate can gain vast amounts of support by essentially saying he hates fags and wants them back in the closet is proof enough that almost nothing has changed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by crashfrog, posted 02-16-2012 9:06 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Rahvin, posted 02-16-2012 5:58 PM Taz has replied
 Message 272 by crashfrog, posted 02-17-2012 11:27 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 285 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-18-2012 6:38 PM Taz has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 267 of 759 (652903)
02-16-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Taz
02-16-2012 5:37 PM


All of the mentioned rights gained are useless if the societal attitude remains the same. The fact that a political candidate can gain vast amounts of support by essentially saying he hates fags and wants them back in the closet is proof enough that almost nothing has changed.
Take a deep breath.
Now, compare the modern fight for gay rights to the racial civil rights movement.
Legal issues, decided by courts, came first. Segregation and interracial marriage were not issues decided at the ballot box, they were decided in the courts. Public opinion was not at all in the overwhelming favor of civil rights proponents. MLKJr was assassinated.
Public support for civil rights came afterward. The forced integration of schools and society basically enabled the development of tolerance and acceptance and eventually to the point where, today, racists are almost universally shunned.
Gay rights are no different. It;s not unexpected (to the rationally-minded person) that courts should rant the first victories to gays, while public support remains lower. It is expected however, and shown in trending data, that public support for gay rights will improve over time in the wake of those legal victories.
Yes, we want everyone to be equal, under the law and in the mind of the average person, right now. We want it 10 years ago. It's not right to treat gays differently now, and it wasn't right before now, and it won't be right tomorrow. But the reality is that public opinion is lethargic, and often needs a push from the courts to move things along. The more society in general sees gays as normal, productive members of society that are no different from them whatsoever beyond the particular set of genitals they feel attracted to, the more the average person will be convinced that gays are the same as everyone else and should be treated the same. It will take time, but history shows us that we will see gradually increasing equality, first legally and then in the hearts and minds of the public. All we need is patience and perseverance.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 5:37 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Taq, posted 02-16-2012 6:12 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 271 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 9:06 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 268 of 759 (652907)
02-16-2012 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Rahvin
02-16-2012 5:58 PM


But the reality is that public opinion is lethargic, and often needs a push from the courts to move things along.
Perhaps it is the older generations that need a push into the grave before public opinion changes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Rahvin, posted 02-16-2012 5:58 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by subbie, posted 02-16-2012 6:26 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 270 by Rahvin, posted 02-16-2012 6:35 PM Taq has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 269 of 759 (652910)
02-16-2012 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Taq
02-16-2012 6:12 PM


You don't even know what I am, Dad, you don't know who I am. You don't know how I feel, what I think. And if I tried to explain it the rest of your life you will never understand. You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs! You understand, you've got to get off my back!
John Prentice, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner
I don't think that's entirely accurate. There are some in older generations who can learn and change with the times. But there is some measure of truth in what you say.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Taq, posted 02-16-2012 6:12 PM Taq has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 270 of 759 (652911)
02-16-2012 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Taq
02-16-2012 6:12 PM


Perhaps it is the older generations that need a push into the grave before public opinion changes?
If that were the case, then progress would occur regardless of court cases or activism, and that's not what history has shown. We have an easily identifiable pattern - the old prejudices will remain under their own inertia unless something is done to foment a change.
That change is enabled by forcing the public at large to deal with the minority in question. Eliminate segregation, make their presence obvious, use the law to force equal treatment in the workplace and for educational opportunities and for marriage. The obvious presence of the minority as equals slowly changes the public consciousness to accept them as such.
Old people may be more set in their ways, or perhaps retirement simply bypasses the forced coexistence younger generations see in schools and the workplace. It certainly doesn't help that the elderly tend to vote more frequently than younger generations. But the elderly don't bear even majority responsibility for the problem.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Taq, posted 02-16-2012 6:12 PM Taq has not replied

  
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