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Author Topic:   God the father
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 91 of 117 (652562)
02-14-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by purpledawn
02-14-2012 12:06 PM


Re: Agape
Agape (selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love) is used in relation to God.
I understand that the concept of love has changed, just as our concept of god has changed...but wouldn't you say god, him/her/itself, hasn't changed? Just like our concept of the world has changed, but the world itself hasn't changed?
But, unconditional love would seem that no matter how bad the kid is, he'll always be loved and welcomed. He may not get candy, but he'll always be welcome.
One child breaks the rules and one doesn't; then one child suffers the consequences and the other receives the "prize". The idea that everyone gets candy no matter how they behave isn't an incentive to behave.
But candy is a temporary prize, and punishment is a temporary anti-prize. A punishment that last for eternity is not a punishment, or at least, is not a just punishment.
I guess its "unconditional" and "eternal" that are giving me issues. I can totally understand punishment and "prizes," but both would be as a way to condition someone, and as such, would have to be less than eternal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2012 12:06 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2012 6:51 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 02-15-2012 11:32 AM Perdition has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 92 of 117 (652589)
02-14-2012 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Perdition
02-14-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Agape
quote:
But, unconditional love would seem that no matter how bad the kid is, he'll always be loved and welcomed. He may not get candy, but he'll always be welcome.
Once our children become adults and choose their lifestyle, we still love them unconditionally; but they may or may not be welcome visitors without behavior changes.
quote:
I guess its "unconditional" and "eternal" that are giving me issues. I can totally understand punishment and "prizes," but both would be as a way to condition someone, and as such, would have to be less than eternal.
Yes it is a way to control people.
Jesus' Teaching On Hell
Where Did the Concept of Endless Torment Originate?
As we’ve seen, it most certainly did not originate in the Old Testament, either before or during the Mosaic Law. A great deal of evidence (more than we’ll give here) suggests that it originated in Egypt, and the concept was widespread in the religious world. Augustine, commenting on the purpose of such doctrines, said:
This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society. (Augustine, City of God, Book IV, p. 32, cited by Thayer, Origin & History, p. 37.)
Contriving doctrines to control people? Who would have believed it? Well, the Greek world did, the Roman world did, and evidently between the testaments, the Jews got involved, as well, as the concept of endless torment began appearing in the apocryphal books written by Egyptian Jews.
The picture Jesus painted with Gehenna was the destruction of the criminal's body in the fire. The idea being that the body is destroyed so there isn't anything to resurrect. So behave so you don't get burned up as a criminal.
For all we know God may have a good reason for not wanting to resurrect wicked people. Maybe the process doesn't work right with a wicked soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Perdition, posted 02-14-2012 3:39 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Perdition, posted 02-15-2012 10:13 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 93 of 117 (652654)
02-15-2012 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by purpledawn
02-14-2012 6:51 PM


Re: Agape
Once our children become adults and choose their lifestyle, we still love them unconditionally; but they may or may not be welcome visitors without behavior changes.
True, but I would still do everything in my power to keep the alive such that a future change in behavior would be possible.
That's why I find "eternal" so distasteful.
If I were God, some sort of purgatory, where a person has an eternity to change their behavior such that they might be "welcomed home" would be the more unconditioned love response.
For all we know God may have a good reason for not wanting to resurrect wicked people. Maybe the process doesn't work right with a wicked soul.
Perhaps. But wouldn't he still want to do so, he just knows doing so would be worse, and so refrains from doing what he wants?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2012 6:51 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2012 11:37 AM Perdition has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 94 of 117 (652676)
02-15-2012 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Perdition
02-14-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Agape
Perdition writes:
But candy is a temporary prize, and punishment is a temporary anti-prize. A punishment that last for eternity is not a punishment, or at least, is not a just punishment.
The reason all of this even comes up is that so many people buy into the fundamentalist view of Christianity and the Bible. Yes, I believe that God speaks to us through the Bible but that does not make the Bible inerrant in terms of it being factually accurate. Any kind of in depth study of the Bible that doesn’t start with the idea that it is dictated by God will conclusively show that it isn’t dictated by God.
I suggest that the fundamentalists have made Christianity nothing but a proving ground for admission into heaven, which of course means hell for those who don’t make the cut. The God that we see incarnate in Jesus is so much bigger than that. I don’t disagree that in the end there will be those that are with God and those that aren’t but it will be, as the quote I used from C S Lewis earlier says, based on human choice. Frankly I don’t believe that we actually will know much about the next life except that the choices we make in this life have eternal consequences.
I think that rather than worry about who goes to hell and who doesn’t we should be considering whether or not there is ultimate justice.
Let’s consider this. In 1991 a young child named Michael Dunahee was abducted not far from where I live now and never seen again. Whoever abducted him was never found. There is virtually no doubt that four year old Michaal was murdered, and nobody wants to even think about what happened to him prior to that. Does anyone here not want to see justice in some form? If we assume that life carries on in some form after this one do we really think that there shouldn’t be justice for Michael and justice for the perpetrator of this heinous act? IMHO the Christian message is that in the end perfect justice will be done. Maybe the perpetrator was horribly abused as a child himself, so who with our human limitations, knows what that justice will look like.
Instead of worrying about what hell is like and who is there, I suggest that we take the Christian message that we have a just God and put our faith in that. In the end I believe that we will all see perfect justice done. In the meantime, instead of worrying about the issue of hell we should all be getting on with the mission of being good stewards of all creation, which of course includes the concept of loving our neighbour.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Perdition, posted 02-14-2012 3:39 PM Perdition has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 95 of 117 (652677)
02-15-2012 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Perdition
02-15-2012 10:13 AM


Re: Agape
The OP presented the issue of eternal suffering. I showed that the Bible writings don't support that the wicked suffer eternally. Message 34
Truth About Hell
quote:
If I were God, some sort of purgatory, where a person has an eternity to change their behavior such that they might be "welcomed home" would be the more unconditioned love response.
They have a life time to change their behavior and don't, then they have an eternity to change their behavior. What's the incentive to change?
What is taking place in your Purgatory to cause them to change their behavior?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Perdition, posted 02-15-2012 10:13 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 02-15-2012 12:32 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 96 of 117 (652680)
02-15-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by purpledawn
02-15-2012 11:37 AM


Re: Agape
They have a life time to change their behavior and don't, then they have an eternity to change their behavior. What's the incentive to change?
The same thing that convinces some people to change their behavior and go back and make amends with their parents now. Time to reflect, perhaps growth, maybe just some sort of jolt to remove the veil that had been blinding them to how they were acting.
I don't know, but as a loving father, I would want my child to have all the time s/he needs, up to eternity, to be able to change their mind and come back. I would never want to just say, "Oh well, they had their chance, tough luck."
What is taking place in your Purgatory to cause them to change their behavior?
Perhaps just time. Maybe angelic counsellors. Maybe even some sort of court, like that seen in "Defending Your Life" (A very good movie, IMHO) where they can see clips from their life, and perhaps get a bit of perspective they didn't have before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2012 11:37 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 117 (652685)
02-15-2012 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
02-10-2012 4:21 PM


If my son were to disown me and never want to have anything to do with me again, I would be profoundly sad. There may be nothing that would make me sadder. But I certainly wouldn't want my son to suffer for the rest of this life, much less for all of eternity, just because he disowned me.
What if disowning you was equated with suffering for eternity?
Would you chain him up in his bedroom to keep him from getting away from you or would you let him go? Would you want to have to force him into not disowning you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by subbie, posted 02-10-2012 4:21 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 98 of 117 (652698)
02-15-2012 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Perdition
02-15-2012 12:32 PM


Re: Agape
quote:
The same thing that convinces some people to change their behavior and go back and make amends with their parents now. Time to reflect, perhaps growth, maybe just some sort of jolt to remove the veil that had been blinding them to how they were acting.
OK, we are talking about people who have already died. So their worst fear is already over. If they have eternity to change, they have nothing to fear and no reason to change since there is no consequence for not changing. They now have eternal life and didn't have to change their behavior. Will you threaten them with group therapy for eternity.
You can say the prize is being with God, but even believers aren't "with" God. You'd have to convince them that the grass is greener on the other cloud.
The parent relationship with God isn't the same as with a child you have raised. If you are a member of his family, he is the authority; but there's no two way communication or contact. Not the same bonding. They don't really have anything to reflect on. The wicked are presumably the worse of the lot, hard core, stubborn and not easily swayed. They probably don't like authority figures.
quote:
Perhaps just time. Maybe angelic counsellors. Maybe even some sort of court, like that seen in "Defending Your Life" (A very good movie, IMHO) where they can see clips from their life, and perhaps get a bit of perspective they didn't have before.
Good movie. The Hindu belief has that system. The God of Abraham is more of a tough love type of parent. Sink or swim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 02-15-2012 12:32 PM Perdition has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 99 of 117 (652711)
02-15-2012 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2012 1:22 PM


What if disowning you was equated with suffering for eternity?
My ego doesn't allow me to even consider that as a rational possibility.
However, just to entertain your hypothetical, I would always allow him the chance to change his mind and return to me, even after death.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 1:22 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 100 of 117 (652728)
02-15-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Perdition
02-15-2012 12:32 PM


Re: Agape
Perdition writes:
The same thing that convinces some people to change their behavior and go back and make amends with their parents now. Time to reflect, perhaps growth, maybe just some sort of jolt to remove the veil that had been blinding them to how they were acting.
I don't know, but as a loving father, I would want my child to have all the time s/he needs, up to eternity, to be able to change their mind and come back. I would never want to just say, "Oh well, they had their chance, tough luck."
IMHO the Bible is not a book dictated by God, but a collection of writings that tell the story of how God, working through human imagination, is bringing His message of love and forgiveness to the world. The Bible is one of the ways that God reaches out to us.
In that light, if there is any message that we can take from the Scriptures it is that God is patient. The ancient Jews were forever turning to pagan gods whenever it suited them, and even when they turned to Yahweh they were incorporating pagan rituals and beliefs into their worship of Yahweh. God never gave up on them. Time and time again, even to the point of visiting the Jews through His son, He kept reaching out in love and forgiveness to mankind.
In Jesus we see Him preaching a message of forgiveness and even making it central to the model of prayer He gave to us. Even as a Jew living in a land being brutally ruled by the Romans He told his followers that they were to love these bitter enemies. On the cross Jesus prayed that His persecutors were to be forgiven. Peter was forgiven. Paul after persecuting Christ's followers was forgiven.
The point in all of this is that we have a loving, kind, forgiving and just God. The Bible tells us that we should be a loving, kind, forgiving and just people. In my view this is the Christian message. Therefore, if what I say is correct we have no need to concern ourselves with who goes to hell and who doesn’t because we can have faith that whatever happens it will be loving, kind, forgiving and just.
I would also add, that anyone who is really interested should read C S Lewis’ book The Great Divorce.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 02-15-2012 12:32 PM Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2012 5:43 PM GDR has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 101 of 117 (652731)
02-15-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by GDR
02-15-2012 5:26 PM


Re: Agape
quote:
The point in all of this is that we have a loving, kind, forgiving and just God. The Bible tells us that we should be a loving, kind, forgiving and just people. In my view this is the Christian message.
Where do we see God being loving, kind, forgiving, and just in our world today? Where do we see God being loving, kind, forgiving, and just in the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by GDR, posted 02-15-2012 5:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by GDR, posted 02-15-2012 6:31 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 102 of 117 (652743)
02-15-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by purpledawn
02-15-2012 5:43 PM


Re: Agape
purpledawn writes:
Where do we see God being loving, kind, forgiving, and just in our world today? Where do we see God being loving, kind, forgiving, and just in the Bible?
Well in the first place we see He cared enough to create us. As I said in the last post that regardless of how badly the Israelites behaved He faithfully kept reaching out to them, and that all climaxed by the gift to the world of Jesus. In Him we have God’s message of love that focused all of His love, kindness, forgiveness and justice into one man.
Jesus consistently preached a message of love and forgiveness saying that all of the law and the prophets were based on love of God and neighbour. In Matthew 25 He essentially tied in the love of God with the love of neighbour so that when we love those in need we are in reality loving God. As Rob Bell says in the title of his last book, Love Wins.
As far as today is concerned we can focus on the evil that exists or we can focus on the good. We can focus on things like the tsunami or we can focus on the love of the world that reached out to the victims. We can focus on the hunger in parts of the third world or we can focus on third world relief. We can look at the evil of cancer or we can look at the wonderful advances in medical research. There is no desire for the vast majority of people to depart this life any time soon.
Nobody is going to question the fact that the world is a not a perfect model of love, kindness, forgiveness or justice, but I would contend that it is closer to that model now than it was in the past. God has chosen the route of working through His human creation to bring His model to the world. We are a work in progress but we do seem to be progressing.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2012 5:43 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 103 of 117 (653131)
02-18-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Panda
02-13-2012 5:46 PM


Re: Omnipotent Parent
quote:
Then you should have used his definition.
But instead you decided to dishonestly attempt a juvenile 'gotcha' where you use a definition completely different to everyone else.
But you knew this - which is why I accused you of deceit.
You were not deceived.
There was no definition given in Message 48 and the definition in Message 77 doesn't deal with what an omnipotent parent would do.
You were not lead down a garden path concerning the meaning of omnipotent and there was no gotcha. You were simply asked why omnipotence makes a difference and why an omnipotent parent would do more? Message 59, Message 63, and Message 65.
There should be some basis or rationale for your opinion.
Since you didn't provide any more explanation, the only way to keep the discussion going was to provide my opinion and provide links and definitions to support my opinion, which I did in Message 70.
Omnipotence has nothing to do with whether one would or could do any more to help their "child" survive or succeed in life. Again we are talking about adults and the parent/child analogy used in Christianity.
quote:
And when it comes to discussions you value stupid semantic tricks over honesty or accuracy.
Words change over time. I find it useful to try and understand how the authors used the words. If you feel my knowledge of the past is inaccurate, you are free to give a counter opinion and your rationale for that position. Disagreeing with me or having a different style of debate doesn't make my argument stupid, dishonest, or inaccurate.
If one claims that God can do whatever we can imagine, there still has to be some basis or rationale for that opinion.
Besides authority, power seems to be the operative word in the definition Message 77.
omnipotent
   [om-nip-uh-tuhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
What is power?
a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect b : legal or official authority, capacity, or right
2 a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others b : one having such power; specifically : a sovereign state c : a controlling group : establishment often used in the phrase the powers that be d archaic : a force of armed men e chiefly dialect : a large number or quantity
3 a : physical might b : mental or moral efficacy c : political control or influence
What is the basis or rationale that power means anything we can imagine?
quote:
You will need to explain every single word as you cannot be trusted not to switch meanings half way through the discussion.
I'm usually pretty good at providing links to unusual words as I did in Message 70. As for omnipotent, I didn't make a claim to it's meaning, so there was nothing to switch from. I just hadn't given my opinion on the issue yet.
I don't feel the Bible supports the idea of eternal torment, but the God of Abraham is portrayed as an authoritarian.
Parenting Styles
1 Authoritative parenting
2 Authoritarian parenting
The parent is demanding but not responsive. Elaborate becomes totalitarian parenting.
Authoritarian parenting, also called strict parenting,[15] is characterized by high expectations of conformity and compliance to parental rules and directions, while allowing little open dialogue between parent and child. "Authoritarian parenting is a restrictive, punitive style in which parents advise the child to follow their directions and to respect their work and effort."[1] Authoritarian parents expect much of their child but generally do not explain the reasoning for the rules or boundaries.[18] Authoritarian parents are less responsive to their children’s needs, and are more likely to spank a child rather than discuss the problem.[19]
3 Indulgent parenting
4 Neglectful parenting
ABE: I'm sorry you felt deceived. That was not my intent.
Edited by purpledawn, : ABE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Panda, posted 02-13-2012 5:46 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Panda, posted 02-18-2012 1:38 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
(1)
Message 104 of 117 (653139)
02-18-2012 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by purpledawn
02-18-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Omnipotent Parent
PD writes:
You were not deceived.
There was no definition given in Message 48 and the definition in Message 77 doesn't deal with what an omnipotent parent would do.
You were not lead down a garden path concerning the meaning of omnipotent and there was no gotcha.
Maybe you should read the 2 similar accusations that Theodoric and Rahvin made.
PD writes:
As for omnipotent, I didn't make a claim to it's meaning, so there was nothing to switch from. I just hadn't given my opinion on the issue yet.
And this would be a confession of disingenuous debating.
There is no point discussing anything with you because you don't decide the meaning of words until you need to win the argument and then you find an obscure meaning so that your previous claims don't look wrong.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by purpledawn, posted 02-18-2012 12:11 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Jon, posted 02-18-2012 3:12 PM Panda has replied
 Message 106 by purpledawn, posted 02-18-2012 3:34 PM Panda has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 117 (653144)
02-18-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Panda
02-18-2012 1:38 PM


Re: Omnipotent Parent
Oh stop. Any all-powerful being has the power to control, at the very least, its own actions. And there is no logic in construing omnipotence as also being control over the actions of others. Absolutely no Christian whatsoever takes it to mean that. And it certainly has no place in the 'God as father' belief.
Besides, few Christians even take to the notion of an superbly omnipotent God; the idea seems, ironically, more popular with Atheists.
So if you want to babble on about some ridiculous tri-omni super deity, you're probably in the wrong thread. This thread is about the Christian God, in particular the characterizing of him as a father with all the powers and restrictions such a role entails.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Panda, posted 02-18-2012 1:38 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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