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Author Topic:   The Roman Catholic Church and Evolution
NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2 of 81 (65314)
11-09-2003 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Apostle
11-09-2003 11:20 AM


Please supply direct quotes from the Pope's speech to support what you say. I was lead to believe that it is the addition of human "spirit" that is separate from evolutionary theory and not nearly as strong a statement as you imply.
The statement you do quote is exactly what I was lead to believe he said.
We, on this forum, are arguing not with what some call "theistic evolution" or "evolutionary theism" but with this thing called "scientific creationism". The Pope's statements are clearly contrary to the ideas of scientific creationism.
Ratzinger's words can be read, I suppose, either way. They could mean evolutionary theism or scientific creationism. It would require the complete context and perhaps more explaination by he or the church to clarify that.
What did you think it was suporting?
added by edit
This seems silly but I just realized I have to ask. You didn't think that any of us thought that the Pope was saying God didn't have a hand in the creation of the universe and life did you? Of course, we understand that he believes that. What we are discussing is in what way he understands God chose to do it.
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Apostle, posted 11-09-2003 11:20 AM Apostle has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 81 (66590)
11-15-2003 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Apostle
11-15-2003 12:21 AM


The "scientific creationists" will get respect for their science when they have some. There needs to be evidence and reasoning.
If they are so brilliant perhaps you would care to defend what they are calling "science"?
There are individuals like Dawkins who bring their personal views in and mix them with some of their science. This is something which most practicing scientists strive to avoid as much as they humanly can.
Unfortunately another flaw of the "brilliant" creation "scientists" is that the all and allways bring thosse beliefs into what they are doing.
There are thread discussing the idea of ID. If you have something to say you may do it there.
Is it only the ID'ers that you consider to have any valid science? Do you agree with the rest of thier views? Does that include the age of the earth and the so-called macro evolution that some of them recognize?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Apostle, posted 11-15-2003 12:21 AM Apostle has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 16 of 81 (70496)
12-02-2003 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Apostle
12-02-2003 12:36 AM


Re: Stay Focused Pleased
Since it seems you have some trouble reading it the way I do I'll do my translation again.
Here is my judgement of what the Pope is trying to say:
The science based theory of evolution is well supported and more supported than it was 60 years ago. The church agrees with most of what it says.
However, the Pope would insist the God started everything off 13.7 billion years ago and that the "spirit" of man did NOT originate in any natural way but was supplied by God.
I am unsure of what he would say about the details of the origin of life on earth. I would guess that he would not agree with the literal truth of Genesis.
If you disagree with this interpretation I suggest we both ask some Catholics to ask their church for an interpretation of the Pope's views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Apostle, posted 12-02-2003 12:36 AM Apostle has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 20 of 81 (70688)
12-03-2003 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Apostle
12-03-2003 12:28 AM


Re: Ask Some Catholics
I would like to read the statments of Ratzinger. Could you link to them and copy the relevant quotations from it to support your views.
In addition, I would like you to state just what you think the position of the RCC is. Is it in support of fundamentalist literalist creationism or something else. If something else how different from literalism is it? If not different from fundamentalism then which fundamentalism is it in support of (there are a number of them).
Does it matter if someone knoew who Ratzinger is? Isn't the Pope the source of "official" Catholic doctrine? (Not that every Catholic agrees with the Pope, but that is still the official line).

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 Message 19 by Apostle, posted 12-03-2003 12:28 AM Apostle has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 25 of 81 (74197)
12-19-2003 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Apostle
12-19-2003 12:34 AM


Catholic Support of Evolution?
How would you intend that we determine what the "official" Church position is?
Do we have to ask the Pope? Can I ask a priest at a local Church? Would what is taught in a Catholic high school biology class be adequate? More than one? Is there a suggested course content supplied to such schools by the church?

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 81 (74339)
12-19-2003 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Apostle
12-19-2003 3:51 PM


Evolution and the Pope
If after reading the speech you still see the word somewhere, please let me know.
Apostle
The link supplied above is refering to the speech you are talking about?
It starts with:
quote:
Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution
For It Involves Conception of Man
and mentions evolution more than a dozen other times.
However, on rereading it and noting the plural of theory, I agree that it is not as clear as I thought it was.
I still think he is trying to agree with modern biology but is trying to avoid being to explicit. However, that might have to be sorted out from outside this speech.
I'll let others argue the details but I'd say he is more agreeing tiwh most of biology than disagrees with it. I would bet a bunch that he certainly isn't a YEC and that he would agree that we evolved from non-human species. He would say that our sprit comes from somewhere else, however.
Now how would we determine what the "official" position is in clear, unambiguous language?
You have seemed to suggest that somehow or another what the Pope says isn't the "official" position. I find that astonding. So how would we determine that position? Pick one or two in the church who agree with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Apostle, posted 12-19-2003 3:51 PM Apostle has replied

Replies to this message:
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