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Author | Topic: Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taz Member (Idle past 3319 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Rahvin writes:
I don't agree with this. The gay rights movement has been in existence for as long as anyone can remember. And it's still politically correct to say gays be gone. Gay rights are no different. It;s not unexpected (to the rationally-minded person) that courts should rant the first victories to gays, while public support remains lower. It is expected however, and shown in trending data, that public support for gay rights will improve over time in the wake of those legal victories. I am reminded of a documentary I saw a couple years ago. It was about gay rights in Europe. They interviewed a holocaust survivor who lost his partner in a death camp. He said that after the war, people of every minority group slowly but surely gained their rights. And then he broke down in tears and said but somehow the homosexuals got left behind. Remember that in this particular case the bigots got god on their side. Nothing will change until either god changes his mind or we kill him off. Remember the phrase segregation before, segregation now, segregation forever? I'm paraphrasing here. Remember how quickly it became NOT OK to say something like that? This is the 21st century. Just a month ago, republican candidates got huge rounds of applauds for saying they want the gheys to go back into the closet. You guys can fantasize all you want. Reality isn't as pretty as you make it out to be.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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All of the mentioned rights gained are useless if the societal attitude remains the same. No, come on, that's stupid. Obviously legal rights are a pretty substantial tool to be deployed against society's disapproval. Maybe it's true that the local hospital nurses think homosexuality is a perversion. But armed with a legal marriage, they can't stop you from visiting your sick partner or making treatment decisions on his or her behalf. Maybe your military commander thinks having a "fag" in the unit weakens the whole. But armed with the right of openly gay servicemembers to serve, he can't do anything but judge your performance as a soldier on its own merits. Santorum can bluster as much as he like, and can shout "fag" until they stomp the floor, but armed with the legal rights gains that we've seen just in the past 5-10 years, it doesn't fucking matter. He can't do anything about it. That's why legal rights are a hell of a lot more important than "societal attitudes" - they're more powerful. People can have all the bad attitudes they want; armed with a protective suite of legal rights, there's fuck-all they can do about it.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1282 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Surely that's as much an oversimplification as Taz's point.
If what you say were true there'd be no more racial discrimination in society, and I know you don't believe that. Court recognized rights are very important. They lead to societal change and acceptance. But there aren't enough courts in the world to handle all the discrimination cases that arise if society doesn't change as well.Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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If what you say were true there'd be no more racial discrimination in society, and I know you don't believe that. You're right, I don't. But there's less, and that's the result of strong legal protections for racial minorities - both in terms of how those legal protections insulate individuals from being affected society's prejudice to some extent, and the shift in attitudes that comes as a result of top-down signaling that "this is how we are, now." I just don't agree that the primary project of any equality movement is about mind-controlling society to give up bad attitudes. That can't be the goal because that's impossible. And ultimately, other people's attitudes about you are a lot less important than what kind of power you can avail yourself of - financial power, legal power, military power all outweigh social power.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3319 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Um, look up Tyra Hunter.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Um, no. I have enough of my own homework; I don't need to do yours.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3319 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
Tyra Hunter was a trans woman that was involved in a crash in DC. When emergency crew discovered that she had male anatomy, they refused to help her. Finally, someone took pity on her and drove her to the hospital. She bled to death in the emergency room because the staff there refused to treat her. Um, no. I have enough of my own homework; I don't need to do yours. This was in 1995. I'm pretty sure there were laws in place to prevent something like this from happening. And yet, it happened. Laws don't mean jack shit if societal attitude still contradicts them. I'm not saying the extreme that you think I'm saying. I'm not saying societal attitude is all there is to it. Sure, we need to change the law. I'm saying it takes a combination of both for this to work. The law is changing at an expected rate, but the change in societal attitude is slow to a crawl. I blame this on you guys, the liberal commie political correctness police crowd.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The law is changing at an expected rate, but the change in societal attitude is slow to a crawl. Isn't this the way things have always worked? The law changes, and we can address situations like Tyra Hunter's using the law. But societal attitudes don't change until the dinosaurs having those attitudes finally die off. We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted.
I blame this on you guys, the liberal commie political correctness police crowd. Who are you talking about?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2133 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
But societal attitudes don't change until the dinosaurs having those attitudes finally die off. We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted. You are correct about the dinosaurs. One of those dinosaurs who opposed the Civil Rights Act died off not too many years ago. Few people now remember that the longest filibuster against the 1964 act was conducted by Senator Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), who personally spoke against the legislation for 14 hours and 13 minutes on June 9 & 10, 1964.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Are you trying to make some sort of point?
Do you know anything about the Southern Democratic Party?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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. And it's still politically correct to say gays be gone. Apparently the word politically correct is so malleable as to no longer have any meaning at all. In most circles, people who say gays begone are considered to be scum. We know fully well that those people who say that kind of crap, have gay family members just like everyone else does, and are thus condemning their own kin. I completely deny that such a thing is politically correct among the people I know. Using your definition of politically correct, it is apparently still politically correct to racially profile Hispanics as long as illegal immigration is being fought, to circulate pictures of Obama on fake food stamps that include pictures of watermelon and fried chicken, to protest Muslim churches even if they are built a thousand miles away from "ground zero", simply because some prominent @#%$&*! still do those things.
Remember the phrase segregation before, segregation now, segregation forever? I'm paraphrasing here. Remember how quickly it became NOT OK to say something like that? Buzsaw says stuff like that all the time.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
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Taz Member (Idle past 3319 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
nonukes writes:
Haven't you been watching the republican debates? Every time a candidate says something even remotely close to gays be gone they got a huge round of applauds. When asked about DADT they'd say they want the gheys back in the closet and the crowd went wild. Remember that this is all on national tv. In most circles, people who say gays begone are considered to be scum. We know fully well that those people who say that kind of crap, have gay family members just like everyone else does, and are thus condemning their own kin. I completely deny that such a thing is politically correct among the people I know. I say I blame our current situation on the liberal commie political correctness crowd because every time someone says something that are against gay people but in a harsh language they'd get yelled down. This has made the bigots to choose their words far more wisely. They're still saying the same thing, just different choice of words. Things don't change until all hell breaks loose. Take the current republican candidates, for example. They all support reinstituting DADT in the military. But wait, service men and women have already come out. This is the same as saying get the hell out of the military, you faggots. See, I'd rather they just come out and say it so the whole world can see their true colors. But no, every time a bigot use the wrong words, you shout him down and tell him how to say the same thing with better choice of words.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Haven't you been watching the republican debates? Every time a candidate says something even remotely close to gays be gone they got a huge round of applauds. When asked about DADT they'd say they want the gheys back in the closet and the crowd went wild. Remember that this is all on national tv. Do you think this is some kind of rebuttal? Those candidates are scum, and I don't think all that much of the audience either. Audiences have similarly applauded the idea that poor sick people should just die off rather than having access to health care. What I really don't understand is how any of that is the fault of liberal commies who oppose those Republican candidates on nearly every issue. That idea just does not make sense to me at all. With the exception of the usual suspects, I cannot think of anyone on this board who has expressed anything but condemnation for DADT. Edited by NoNukes, : Add more snark.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4256 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
yeah I thought not.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4256 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
look at how y'all talk about the opposition, do you want to change hearts and minds or just tell people what to do? (the answer is obvious from reading this thread)
I know I know you are right about everything and those who disagree are morons. nothing new same old liberals.
nonukes writes: We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted. well it is not constitutional as much as it is politically correct. The 1964 Act is significant because it marks a time were feel-good politically correct policies begin to outweigh the constitution, and no one cares. It is a catch 22, because in defending the constitution one becomes a racist. so what is more important, doing the right thing, or not being called names? Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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