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Author Topic:   Evolution is True Because Life Needs It
markl67
Junior Member (Idle past 4418 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 02-20-2012


Message 76 of 188 (653424)
02-20-2012 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
02-20-2012 11:03 PM


Re: There will be a 101 level course on faith
There will be a 101 level course on faith...when every knee will bow...yours and mine.

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 77 of 188 (653425)
02-21-2012 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by markl67
02-20-2012 9:37 PM


It cannot reasonably explain the origin of the "primordial ooze" from whence all life originated from
Nor does it try to. You do know what the ToE says, don't you? Or do you just know what your pastor or AIG says?
Something does not come from nothing.
Would you mind explaining, in detail, what this has to do with evolution and where in the theory of evolution it states "well here, in this part of the theory, something has to come from nothing"?
All life and the perfect order of the universe could not have come into existence by random chance.
"Perfect order" of the universe? Surely you jest. Pop quiz hot shot: how much of the universe is habitable? What percentage of earth is habitable?
There probably will never be a "scientific model" for creation that will satisfy the other camp since any such model would be deemed religious in nature and not "superior" to the "accepted" evolutionary model.
First post and you already elicit defeat. As I said to another creo poster: do they preprogram you guys at the christian factory with persecution complex? It's fucking ingrained in you lot.
I guess the bottom line is it takes faith to believe either argument which ironically makes evolution a form of religion.
Define faith because your usage of the term is rather skewed if you think "accepting mounds and mounds of evidence and reality" to equate to faith. (hint: the google machine will give you the defintion but it's up to you to actually learn the word)
Creationists have nothing to lose...if we're wrong then we all die like dogs and this life is all there is...
funny thing about you creo's: you could give a shit about this life if there's no pearly gates whereas atheists actually DO care about this life because it's the only one we've got. Who's morals are fucked and meaningless now?

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by markl67, posted 02-20-2012 9:37 PM markl67 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 78 of 188 (653426)
02-21-2012 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by markl67
02-20-2012 11:27 PM


Re: Welcome!
take apart a car and then blow up the parts and then parts re-form into the car (big bang).
You do realize the big bang wasn't..actually...an...explosion, right?
{abe}
upon further dissection of your posts, I will say that if you wish to preach or proselytize, use the faith and belief section please. Over there you can preach about your skydaddy all you want.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 79 of 188 (653429)
02-21-2012 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by markl67
02-20-2012 11:27 PM


Re: Welcome!
You better believe I stick to scripture and I believe every word. God states He created everything in the beginning - seems as if the burden of proof is upon you to prove otherwise. You have made a choice to not believe because God is not something we can fully wrap our minds around so we look for other ways to explain the origins of life aka pride. I would disagree there is no faith required to believe your dogma.
Belief gets in the way of learning.
And you presented not a shred of evidence to support your belief.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 80 of 188 (653430)
02-21-2012 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by markl67
02-20-2012 11:35 PM


Re: There will be a 101 level course on faith
There will be a 101 level course on faith...when every knee will bow...yours and mine.
But which faith?
...there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."
Religions of the world: numbers of adherents; growth rates
And on what empirical evidence will you rely to determine which of these is the one true faith, if any one actually is?
At least science relies on empirical evidence to differentiate between competing ideas.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 81 of 188 (653441)
02-21-2012 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by markl67
02-20-2012 11:27 PM


Re: Welcome!
mark166 writes:
Evolution does not need to explain origins? Exactly my point - building an argument from the 2nd story up
That's just a fact; evolution works on life, before life got here - by whatever means - there was nothing for evolution to work on. So you are right to say that it works from the second story up. You can say that God did that bit if you like. Equally, you can say that replicating molecules arrived on a meteor or were planted here by aliens.
We simply don't know how life started and maybe we never will, that doesn't mean that science isn't looking and it certainly doesn't mean that the theory of evolution is wrong. You don't need to know the origin of a car's parts to build the car.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 82 of 188 (653451)
02-21-2012 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by markl67
02-20-2012 11:34 PM


Re: There will be a 101 level course for Creationists.
I explained all that in the very post you are responding to when I said "GOD is far grander than the picayune little bling-bling pimp daddy worshiped by the Creationists."
And the fact is that there is no such thing as "The God of the Bible" just as there is no such thing as "The Bible", but those are irrelevant to this topic.
You can see that is fact though when you note that the God that spoke things into existence in the young Genesis 1 story is entirely different than the somewhat bumbling, uncertain, sometimes afraid, learning on the job God in the in the older Genesis 2&3 stories.
Trying to head back towards the topic though, the majority of recognized Christian Churches understand that Evolution is a fact and that the Theory of Evolution is the only model so far that explains the variety and diversity of life we see today. It is why last Sunday was Evolution Sunday.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 188 (653458)
02-21-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by markl67
02-20-2012 9:37 PM


Basically anyone who discounts the evolution model is a religious nut job or a laughable fanatic of some sort.
I know! Right? What's up with that!?
Its just like the people who thought the Earth was flat, or at the center of the universe.
I guess people just don't like it when their religious beliefs are challenged. Unfortuantely for them, science works. Nobody in their right mind thinks the Earth is flat anymore.
As a believer in creation (ID) it seems to me that the evolution hypothesis attempts to build its case from the 2nd floor up.
Okay, well, life is here. That's inarguable. Too, its diverse. So how the hell did that happen? That's the question. We don't have to figure out how it got here to figure out how it diversified.
All life and the perfect order of the universe could not have come into existence by random chance.
No evolutionist proposes otherwise.
I guess the bottom line is it takes faith to believe either argument which ironically makes evolution a form of religion.
This is always an interesting argument to me (and one that doesn't seem particularly though-out): "Oh yeah, well evolution requires faith too!"
So what's so bad about having faith that it would be an insult to an evolutionist? Doesn't that insult faith, itself?
Creationists have nothing to lose...if we're wrong then we all die like dogs and this life is all there is...
What if God created us by the process outlined in the Theory of Evolution? Then you'd be wrong and still have something to loose, right?

The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false. - St. Thomas Aquinas

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 84 of 188 (653467)
02-21-2012 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by markl67
02-20-2012 9:37 PM


It cannot reasonably explain the origin of the "primordial ooze" from whence all life originated from.
Evolution is the study of life and how it has changed. How life got here is as relevant to that as how atoms and molecules first got here is to chemistry. You can certainly study what will happen if you mix chemicals together without knowing (or even believing) the Big Bang Theory.
Similarly, you can study how life has changed and is changing without reference to abiogenesis, or even Genesis. Trying to conflate the two is just an expression of ignorance, both about what the Theory of Evolution says, and how science works in general.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 85 of 188 (653474)
02-21-2012 3:24 PM


I'd like to suggest that this thread should be scrapped because there aren't any evolutionists who will support the claim in the original post.

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 86 of 188 (653478)
02-21-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
02-21-2012 8:25 AM


Re: There will be a 101 level course for Creationists.
It is why last Sunday was Evolution Sunday.
I hadn't heard of that event before!
From Clergy Letter Project:
quote:
The Project also encourages congregations to participate Evolution Weekend by sponsoring events in which clergy and congregations are encouraged to learn about and discuss evolution. The weekend chosen is the closest Sunday to Charles Darwin's birthday, February 12. Evolution Sunday events first took place in 2006 and the Project renamed it in 2008 to be more inclusive. The Clergy Letter Project states that Evolution Weekend activities are "an opportunity for serious discussion and reflection on the relationship between religion and science" and in an effort "to elevate the quality of the discussion on this critical topic, and to show that religion and science are not adversaries."The Project states that events are specifically intended to emphasize that "Religious people from many diverse faith traditions and locations around the world understand that evolution is quite simply sound science; and for them, it does not in any way threaten, demean, or diminish their faith in God. In fact, for many, the wonders of science often enhance and deepen their awe and gratitude towards God."
Far better and far more constructive than the Fundamentalist approach of seeing science as attacking God and the creationist approach that if they find the world to be as it actually is, then God does not exist -- ie, creationists make a multitude of contrary-to-fact claims while teaching that if those contrary-to-fact claims are false, then Scripture has no meaning and God does not exist.

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 Message 82 by jar, posted 02-21-2012 8:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 188 (653481)
02-21-2012 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by dwise1
02-21-2012 3:50 PM


Re: There will be a 101 level course for Creationists.
Evolution Sunday has grown every year and the Clergy Letter Project (not to be conflated with the Clergy Project which is designed to help Christian Clergy (lots of ex Evangelicals and Fundamentalists) who realize they have been indoctrinated in falsehoods and so no longer can preach nonsense like Creationism) has now been endorsed by over 12,000 US Christian Clergy as well as many Jewish Rabbis and Universalists.
The response from the Fundamentalists predictably was to designate the same Sunday each year as Creation Sunday and try to conflate the Clergy Letter Project with the Clergy Project and claim that the Clergy Letter Project is an atheist front. Of course the number of signatures and the list of those signing the Clergy Letter Project refute their assertions and simply show that once again the only answer Creationism has is denial an misrepresentation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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markl67
Junior Member (Idle past 4418 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 02-20-2012


Message 88 of 188 (653482)
02-21-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by hooah212002
02-21-2012 12:00 AM


Yes, I know what the HoE says...I'm nor more "indoctrinated" by a pastor than you are by a professor/teacher right?. My contention is that the evolutionary hypothesis is bunk based on the fact that it doesn't address (because it can't) the issue of origin. Its my contention that all life is by intentional and intelligent design and because of that species do not need to change into something they weren't created for. Adapt/change within a species does not equal evolution.
Perfect order has nothing to do with habitation. Perhaps that's your definition of perfect. Habitable by what...only humans. Did it occur to you that perhaps earth is the only habitable planet in the universe as God's way of showing mankind their significance?
I'm not admitting defeat (not that this is a win-able debate by either side in all likelihood). What I'm saying is submitting a model on creation is not taken seriously because if/when the term "creator" is used its directly tied to God and deemed religious. It's like inviting a basketball team to play in a hockey rink.
Faith is belief in something not provable. If you had mounds and mounds of evidence we wouldnt be having a debate. Your reality is skewed in my mind...how anyone can look at nature and the amazing human anatomy and arrive at anything other than ID is mind boggling to me.
I certainly do care about life but this is all temporal to me. I try to live in light of eternity. I'm not sure what my statement has to with morals in any way. My point is if atheists are right then who cares, but if wrong then you have a major problem don't you. I cant even imagine thinking this life is it...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by hooah212002, posted 02-21-2012 12:00 AM hooah212002 has replied

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 Message 89 by hooah212002, posted 02-21-2012 5:16 PM markl67 has not replied
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 Message 91 by Perdition, posted 02-21-2012 5:21 PM markl67 has replied
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-21-2012 5:37 PM markl67 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 89 of 188 (653483)
02-21-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by markl67
02-21-2012 5:05 PM


Yes, I know what the HoE
What is the "HoE"?
I'm nor more "indoctrinated" by a pastor than you are by a professor/teacher right?.
Nope. I look at the world around me and come to evidence based conclusions. It just so happens that those conclusions agree with science and scientists..ya know, people who know that sort of thing?
My contention is that the evolutionary hypothesis is bunk based on the fact that it doesn't address (because it can't) the issue of origin.
Oh, you meant the ToE, right? And no, you obviously do NOT know what it says or is. Otherwise you would know that it doesn't stand to address origins in this sense.
Its my contention that all life is by intentional and intelligent design and because of that species do not need to change into something they weren't created for. Adapt/change within a species does not equal evolution.
I don't give two flying cock fucks what your contention is. I told you once already: this is the science section of EvC, leave your stupid fucking beliefs at the door or take them to the faith and belief side. We debate evidence here, not fairy tales.
Perfect order has nothing to do with habitation. Perhaps that's your definition of perfect. Habitable by what...only humans. Did it occur to you that perhaps earth is the only habitable planet in the universe as God's way of showing mankind their significance?
Unless you've got some evidence for this god character that is pertinent to the subject of evolution, you should stop bringing it up.
Faith is belief in something not provable.
Try again pal. It is belief in something with disregard to evidence.
If you had mounds and mounds of evidence we wouldnt be having a debate.
No, we wouldn't be having a debate if there weren't ignorant people who believed in bronze age desert myths. You people ignore evidence and reality and prove it time and again.
If, at any point you would like to bring some evidence to your argument, we are all ears. Less preachy and more evidence. This isn't your pulpit.

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by markl67, posted 02-21-2012 5:05 PM markl67 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 90 of 188 (653484)
02-21-2012 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by markl67
02-21-2012 5:05 PM


mark167 writes:
My point is if atheists are right then who cares, but if wrong then you have a major problem don't you. I cant even imagine thinking this life is it...
This is actually what it boils down to in the end. All the fake science, the pseudo hypotheses and evolution denialism is just about maintaining this world view. Pure hubris.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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