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Author Topic:   Slavery: Christian Excuses
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 82 (654815)
03-04-2012 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by mike the wiz
03-04-2012 5:14 PM


Re: Repugnant!
It's simply not true that we don't understand science, but again, reality is not that simple. There will be Creationists that don't understand science, and Creationists that do.
Unfortunately, both of the creationists who do took a vow of silence when they entered the Trappist monastery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 03-04-2012 5:14 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(9)
Message 29 of 82 (654824)
03-04-2012 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
03-04-2012 6:45 PM


X
You are using very selective words, called, "epithets". For example, the term, "slave" or the way you are phrasing alleged texts. First you have to prove that slavery is in the bible according to a specific definition of slavery. You have not provided what the text says. Does the original Hebrew use the word slave, and what do we, as modern people, define as slave, hyper-specifically?
Very well, let's look into this.
Let's use the letter X where the NIV says "slave" and see what we can make of it.
An X is "property" (Exodus 21:21, Leviticus 25:46). People are "forced" to become Xs (Jeremiah 34:16). Xs are "held in bondage" (Jeremiah 34:9, Jeremiah 34:10). The opposite of X is "free" (Deuteronomy 32:36, 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 9:8, 2 Kings 14:26). To cease being an X is to be "freed" (Exodus 6:6, Exodus 21:26, Jeremiah 34:9, Jeremiah 34:10). The masters of Xs "oppress them with forced labor" (Exodus 1:11). An X may be "bought" (Leviticus 22:11, Leviticus 25:44, Ecclesiastes 2:7) and "sold" (Leviticus 25:42, Deuteronomy 24:7, Esther 7:4, Job 3:19, Psalms 105:17). An X may be given as a gift (Genesis 20:14) or bequeathed by his master to his children "as inherited property" (Leviticus 25:46). If through negligence someone causes the death of an X, compensation is paid to his "master" not to his family (Exodus 21:32). It is legitimate to beat an X with a rod, so long as the beating is not so severe that the X dies as a direct result of the beating (Exodus 21:20-21).
Moreover, the slaveowning cultures of the classical Greeks and Romans translated X as δούλος (slave) in the Septuagint and servus (slave) in the Vulgate, respectively.
You ask "What do we, as modern people, define as slave, hyper-specifically?" A modern English definition of "slave" is as follows (from the Free Online Dictionary):
One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
And here's Wikipedia:
Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.
Now, this is exactly what the OT describes. Xs are "held in bondage", they are "property", they are "bought" and "sold", and they are "oppressed with forced labor". It seems, then, that the correct English word for X is in fact "slave".
You see, you WANT it to be regarded as something which is, "bad" which people call, "slavery". My fair response is to request that you prove that it was exactly the same slavery you are defining, to explain why slavery is "bad" and then prove this kind of bad-slavery is what took place in the OT, rather than using the epithet, "slavery". (Google "epithets")
In the end, there is no point in arguing about words. If you refuse to call these people slaves, I cannot make you do so. In that case, let us think of another word for their status. Let us call them "snaves". A snave is a human being whose legal status is as property, who may be bought, sold, given as a gift or inherited, who is forced to work for his owner and may be beaten at his owner's discretion.
Now, let us say, if you wish, that the Bible never mentions slavery. It does, on the other hand, have a great deal to say about snavery. So, tell us, please, is it right or wrong to ensnave another human being? Should it be a crime to be a snave-owner, or to traffic in snaves? If it is wrong, why does the Bible institutionalize snavery rather than condemn it?
You may wrangle with words, but you cannot deny the substance of the thing whether you call it slavery or snavery: such a state existed, whatever you choose to call it. Now let us hear what you think about the moral status of snave-drivers.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 03-04-2012 6:45 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 03-05-2012 6:44 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(7)
Message 53 of 82 (654924)
03-05-2012 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
03-05-2012 6:44 AM


Re: X
Firstly, I gave the first answer/(1) because nowadays we have a better system.
Then apparently the system instituted by man is, even on your own estimation, better than that instituted by God.
In reality, God destroyed man from the earth in the flood. Now, He can choose a people, and put up with them to an extent, and their ways, to an extent, or, He can destroy them, but no matter what He does, they will not be fully righteous/moral.
The bible, allowed slavery, but this says more about the people of the Old Testament than God. God's permissive will is weaved into the bible on an unequivocal scale. He "permits" certain activities, usually for His own reasons.
But there's a difference between putting up with our wrongdoing on the one hand, and on the other hand not even dropping a hint that it is wrongdoing and that he's against it. Somewhere in between forbidding the eating of lobsters and the wearing of mixed fabrics, God could have said that slavery was a bad idea, and if it was not his desire to compel men to virtue, he could at least have pointed them in the right direction.
Look at Abraham. According to the Bible, at God's command he was willing to sacrifice his own son, and to circumcise himself without benefit of anesthetic. So maybe God could have said to him: "Ixnay on the slavery". Would Abraham really have said: "No, look, sacrificing my own son, fine. Cutting bits off my penis, painful, but I did it. But now you're asking me not to own people as property and that's more than flesh and blood can bear. God Almighty or no God Almighty, this is where I draw the line."
I might post a link, as to AIGs opinion on this, as they are more informed than I, on this issue, I myself can't refute the term, "slave" at this time, but I still think it is mostly an epithet, because of examples of a certain idea people get, I still think there would have been differences in biblical slavery.
What are you talking about? They were people owned as property. This is slavery.
I think your position as moral relativists ...
... is something you've made up. I am not a moral relativist. I have a system of morals, I just don't try to justify it on the basis that I have an invisible friend who agrees with me.
So you say there is no real wrong, no objective wrong ...
No I don't.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 03-05-2012 6:44 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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