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Author Topic:   Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 91 of 220 (636527)
10-07-2011 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Panda
10-07-2011 1:04 AM


Re: Your point is?
Hi Panda
Portillo is correct to list it as a scientific fraud.
Yep, and I agreed that it was a fraud. Problem?
He also listed information showing asserting that this fraud was still being perpetuated, which is not entirely correct - the drawings have been used, but the discussion around them is not that his hypothesis was correct, but how it has been corrected.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Panda, posted 10-07-2011 1:04 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1110 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 92 of 220 (636528)
10-07-2011 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Portillo
10-07-2011 7:43 AM


Do Haeckels embryos still appear in high school science textbooks?
Not having a bunch of high-school science textbooks lying around this is difficult to answer. I don't recall them being in our high school books. Neither embryology or evolution were given any significant time at school under the curriculum I studied.
I've been trying to find out through use of the wide world of web how much, if at all, they're used in modern textbooks used in the USA, and it's difficult to tell. The only article I've found that investigates in any detail is on Pharyngula, on account of him teaching embryology and thus having many textbooks to hand. The answer appears to be no, not much.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 93 of 220 (636529)
10-07-2011 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by caffeine
10-07-2011 7:17 AM


Re: Did Haeckel commit fraud?
Hi caffeine,
... but it's not at all clear that it's true.
And they aren't shockingly inaccurate. The picture below is taken from Josh Rosensau on scienceblogs).
Thanks. So it could have been his conviction that he was right influencing what he saw, rather than outright fraud. Interesting. However, this does not change the fact that his hypothesis was wrong and has been corrected by later science.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 94 of 220 (636531)
10-07-2011 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Portillo
10-07-2011 7:43 AM


Hi Portillo,
Do Haeckels embryos still appear in high school science textbooks?
They do still appear in some textbooks, however when they are used it is to discuss what embryology does and does not show. As caffeine has pointed out, they are not that inaccurate in what they show, the inaccuracy was the hypothesis, which has been invalidated - not ALL stages of phylogenic history are repeated, just some, and different histories are retained in different branches of descent.
Other textbooks, like the one by Ken Miller and Joe Levine (5th edition) do not - they use drawings based on actual photos:
Haeckel's Embryos
quote:
Page 223 of the Lion Book (BIOLOGY - The Living Science) and page 283 of the Elephant Book (BIOLOGY by Miller and Levine) each contain drawings of the early stages of embryonic development in several vertebrates. Although neither of these drawings are identical to his, they are based on the work of Ernst Haeckel (portrait at left), a 19th century German Biologist who was a pioneer in the study of embryonic development.
So, what have we done? Well, we fixed it!
In 1998 we rewrote page 283 of the 5th edition to better reflect the scientific evidence. Our books now contain accurate drawings of the embryos made from detailed photomicrographs:
This says more about how textbooks are developed by publishers - do they spend money on new photos or do they use existing material? - and how textbooks are selected by schools (cost & convenience vs accuracy) than about how the actual science is done.
But also please note that this thread is not for discussion of the different frauds, but to list them. If there is some doubt about this actually being an intentional fraud by Haeckel, then I am willing to list it on the evolution side, fraud does happen in science, however I also note how much it is overbalanced by frauds on the creationist side.
If you are going to argue that the drawings show that the alleged fraud is still being presented, then you need to present the words in the textbooks and show that they are fraudulent or perpetuate a false hypothesis.
Thanks for your interest.
Enjoy.
Edited by Zen Deist, : book info

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4246 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 95 of 220 (636592)
10-08-2011 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
10-07-2011 7:53 AM


Of course it matters. If its a fraud, it shouldnt be used in textbooks. At least not without a disclaimer which I think some textbooks have.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 97 by jar, posted 10-08-2011 8:33 AM Portillo has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 96 of 220 (636597)
10-08-2011 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Portillo
10-08-2011 1:20 AM


A major problem is with textbooks. In the mid 1980's, Bill Bennetta (The Textbook League, http://www.textbookleague.org/) became involved in textbook selection. As reported in the NCSE's Creation/Evolution Newsletter of the time, the California State Board of Education was considering textbooks for the state's biology classes. Bennetta was able to get a group of scientists involved in that review process. They found that every single textbook being considered was full of inaccuracies and false information.
Think about it, now. Textbooks are published by textbook publishers. The textbooks themselves are written by professional textbook writers, not by scientists. Furthermore, in that long period from the triumph of the anti-evolution forces in the 1920's, when the major "monkey laws" were passed, to Sputnik (circa 1959) when we suddenly found ourselves in a "science gap" (please view "Doctor Strangelove" for some of that era's mentality) and were suddenly trying to catch up in science education, the anti-evolution forces were continually applying pressure on textbook publishers, much as creationists continue to try to do.
Here's how that issue "resolved itself" in mid-80's California: the board of scientists made their recommendations of corrections to the least erroneous textbooks, the publishers made a few token corrections, and the State Board approved the textbooks behind the backs of the scientists.
There are two separate questions here: What did Haeckel do? And what does actual study of embryos indicate? The fraudulent things that Haeckel did are indeed fraudulent. But at the same time, what does the actual study of actual embryos show?

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jar
Member
Posts: 34061
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 97 of 220 (636604)
10-08-2011 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Portillo
10-08-2011 1:20 AM


Reading comprehension.
Learn to read.
I asked two questions;
quote:
Which version?
Does it matter?
In English and most languages the concept of order is essential; when reading you need to understand that a statement like the above involves precedent.
The first question was "Which version" referring to either the drawings or for the last 100 years or so, photographs.
The question "Does it matter" refers to the question "Which version".
Would you like to try again?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 95 by Portillo, posted 10-08-2011 1:20 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4246 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 98 of 220 (636652)
10-08-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
10-08-2011 8:33 AM


Re: Reading comprehension.
quote:
Would you like to try again?
No.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 99 of 220 (636654)
10-09-2011 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Portillo
10-07-2011 7:43 AM


Haeckel embryo's have never appeared in any high school textbooks utilized in my country.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 100 of 220 (653675)
02-23-2012 2:19 PM


for Jefferinoopolis and CrytoGod ...
Hi Jefferinoopolis, just saw your new post proposal, and thought you might want to look at this thread.
Proposed New Topics Evolution - A Theory Based on Hoaxes? Message 1: In message 39 of the "Where are all the apes leading up to humans" Crytogod stated
quote:
How do we know there are not hoaxes? Evolutionists have a history of presenting hoaxes as the 'missing link'?
I would like Crytogod to detail some of these hoaxes so we can critically examine them.
They are probably already covered here. Of course it would be interesting to see how CrytoGod presents information to show that hoaxes are an integral and intentional part of science ...
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 220 (654944)
03-05-2012 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by RAZD
02-23-2012 2:19 PM


Fraud - idscience
From Best Evidence Macro-Evolution, message 144
My blog on this subject is called "evolution's shell game"WordPress.com — Get a Free Blog Here
A quick look:
quote:
EVOLUTION’s SHELL GAME
The deception here is in his use of the word evolution. Evolution covers every thing now. Any change of anything over time. How convenient is that. Now statement like his can be made and be technically be correct. Convenient, the evolutionist lobby has been able to define their belief in a way that they can defend it. ...
Typical misinformation and ignorance being spread to delude the gullible, once again.
Also see
http://www.idscience.ca
EVOLUTIONS BEST EVIDENCE?
For more of same. Fraud posing as knowledge.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.
Edited by RAZD, : changed hoax to fraud

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 102 of 220 (654953)
03-05-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
03-05-2012 7:55 PM


Re: Hoax from idscience
Typical misinformation and ignorance being spread to delude the gullible, once again.
Yes, I agree with that. On the other hand, I would not call it a hoax.
I'll note that idscience's web site is so ugly that it hurts the eyes. I don't think it will attract many readers.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 103 of 220 (654955)
03-05-2012 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nwr
03-05-2012 10:10 PM


Re: Hoax from Fraud idscience
ok, fraud then, posing as knowledge, pretending to know more than he does.
agree on the site. particularly bad on my screen when his text extends down out of his boxes.
bad design.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : code

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 104 of 220 (654957)
03-05-2012 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nwr
03-05-2012 10:10 PM


Re: Hoax from idscience
Typical creotard format and layout on the website. They all think they are ace web designers too.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 220 (654960)
03-06-2012 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Theodoric
03-05-2012 11:09 PM


Re: Hoax from idscience
Typical creotard format and layout on the website. They all think they are ace web designers too.
For what its worth, I'm used to finding lots of good information on poorly designed, eyeball busting web pages. For example, for some reason, programmers tend to make bad looking web pages full of useful content.
I can forgive bad layout, and atrocious spelling. But it is almost impossible to read more than a couple of sentences without hearing the invisible man whispering rebuttals into your ear using your voice.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

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