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Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 77 of 991 (655028)
03-06-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by foreveryoung
03-06-2012 3:05 PM


Re: The key is "if the ark was real." It isn't.
Why does there have to be a genetic bottleneck to begin with?
When you shrink a population down to 2 to 14 individuals it produces a genetic bottleneck.
My idea of 200,000 years ago actually corresponds radiometrically to what you would call the start of the archean eon.
Based on what evidence?

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 88 of 991 (655040)
03-06-2012 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by foreveryoung
03-06-2012 3:27 PM


Re: The key is "if the ark was real." It isn't.
Genetic bottlenecks are a relatively modern phenomena. Most of the original genetic information that God originally created all life with has been lost.
Evidence please.
Also, are you saying that genomes used to be 10 times larger?

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 103 of 991 (655065)
03-06-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by foreveryoung
03-06-2012 3:45 PM


Genetic bottlenecks are a relatively modern phenomena.
Evidence please.
Most of the original genetic information that God originally created all life with has been lost.
Evidence please.
NO. LISTEN CAREFULLY all you people whose minds are closed like a steel trap.
My mind is very open to evidence. Do you have any? Do you really expect me to just accept bare assertions as true just because you say they are true? Surely, asking for evidence is the sign of an open mind. If my mind was closed then I wouldn't be asking for evidence. I would just say it is untrue and ignore it.
Genetic bottlenecks occur today. YOU need to provide me evidence that they existed millions of years ago.
Genetic bottlenecks occur anytime a population is limited to just a few individuals. It reduces the number of alleles. Unless you are claiming that species used to have genomes 10x the size of current genomes, then genetic bottlenecks should have occurred universally if the Noah myth is true, and those bottlenecks should be detectable in modern species. They are not.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by foreveryoung, posted 03-07-2012 11:54 AM Taq has replied
 Message 107 by foreveryoung, posted 03-07-2012 12:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 112 of 991 (655119)
03-07-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by foreveryoung
03-07-2012 11:54 AM


The problem here is that what I will give you as evidence, you will reject as non evidence. No matter what I say, you will say that I have given no evidence.
So you want to play the part of Rosa Parks without actually getting on the bus.
You won't accept my evidence because you define evidence differently that I do.
IOW, it's not evidence because it isn't evidence. Sorry, but you don't get to redefine beliefs as evidence.
When you post your evidence, you post it in a way that says "this evidence can only support my conclusion and nothing else". That is a non starter right there.
Actually, it is presented as "this supports this conclusion" and I challenge you to show otherwise.
You and most others on this site and in the majority of the scientific community are blind to the fact that you have a strong bias when interpreting the evidence.
So says the person who feels the need to redefine the word evidence. Bias much?
You have a philosophical commitment that you are blind to.
I am fully aware that I am committed to testable theories that are supported by empirical evidence. That is kind of the whole point.
The trick is to recognize that you have one in order to more rationally analyze the world around you.
I am asking for evidence so that I can rationally analyze your claims. Do you have any or not? Are you just making this up as you go? What evidence led you to the conclusion that life once had "super genomes"? What were these super genomes like? How would they mask a massive decrease in population sizes? Why do you avoid these questions?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 113 of 991 (655120)
03-07-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by foreveryoung
03-07-2012 12:13 PM


Re: Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
Not necessarily. It would only be true, if your initial assumptions about the past are proven to be true.
The assumption is that animals were diploid (i.e. two copies of each chromosome) and therefore carry two alleles per gene. Can you tell us why we should not be making this assumption? It seems like a pretty solid one to me.
To my estimation of things, the have not been proven to be true.
So says the person who claims that animals used to have super genomes without offering any evidence whatsoever.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 115 of 991 (655123)
03-07-2012 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by foreveryoung
03-07-2012 12:09 PM


#1. You assume that evolution has always occurred by the mechanisms observed in laboratories today. #2. You assume that lack of allelic diversity has always been detrimental.
#1: Are you saying that mutations did not occur in any animals in the past, and only do so now in all animals by some fluke of luck?
#2: No one is claiming that a lack of allelic diversity is detrimental. All we are saying is that massive decreases in population size drastically reduce allelic diversity. The only assumption is that animals in the past were diploid so that they carried two alleles per gene. Can you please tell us why we should not be making this assumption?
You can reach today's levels of allelic diversity in 200,000 years. Show me where I am wrong.
Have you heard of this little thing called "burden of proof"? The person making the claim needs to support their own claims. You have now claimed that 200,000 years is enough time to produce the genetic diversity we see today. Now it is up to you to marshal the evidence to support this claim. It is not my job to support your claims. That is your job.
You can generate a vast amount of diversity simply by turning genes on and off at different times in the womb and in development.
That is not how genetic diversity is measured. Genetic diversity is measured by the differences in DNA sequence which are not affected by gene regulation. When a gene is turned on it does not change the DNA sequence of the gene. Your reasoning is way off.
The different alleles would come about later on after thousand of species had already speciated from their common ancestors.
I think we all agree with this. What we are saying is that there is not enough time for mutations to build up in order to produce the genetic diversity we see today.

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