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Author | Topic: No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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IIRC I first presented that idea back in 2005 or 2006 and the beauty of it is that it begins by assuming only what the Bible stories say is true and asks, "If true, what must we see?"
If someone claims that they shot and hit the target, then we must see a hole in the target. If we look at the target and there is no hole, then the claim that the target was hit is falsified. The test is also independent of when the flood happened; it does not matter if it was yesterday, 4300 years ago or 200,000 years ago. Regardless of when the flood happened the genetic bottleneck would have been at the same time for every surviving species. The population would have been reduced to at best 14 critters of a kind and at worst 4 critters of a kind. But wait, there is more... one possible way around it has been to invoke some super genome, that the pre-flood genome was somehow different and so allowed for greater variation. Well, there are two major problems there. First, even if there was some super genome if the Biblical flood stories were true there would still only be at best 14 copies of it to work with and that is still a bottleneck. Second, we have genetic evidence from humans that date to before the 4300 years ago date, from as far back as 30,000 years ago and as far back as 14,000 years ago in the Americas and there is no sign of any super-genome. I think these two lines of reasoning are pretty solid. Here is the detailed description of the first argument (the genetic bottleneck).
quote: And for the second argument see the thread Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found. Edited by jar, : an ---> and appalin spallin as usual Edited by jar, : fix quote boxesAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, we have DNA samples analyzed for hominids going back at least 50,000 years now, from several different species and no evidence of any super genome has ever been found. It is also true that genetic evidence from plants, fungi, insects, animals, fish, just about every critter ever sequenced shows no evidence of any super genome.
Until someone presents evidence of some super genome I think that idea can be set aside.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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This is a great thread for you since it is an example of how to do "What if" speculation. It begins by saying "If the Noahic Flood myths are true what must we see?"
You tend to ask just such "What if" questions, but don't take the next step. For example "What if the speed of light were faster or slower?" Well, the answer there is that we would see the evidence of that in radioactive decay halos and in the stars. What if the masses were much less than they are today? Then the Earth would be further from the sun and the moon further from the earth and ... Change leaves evidence and in the case of the Noahic Flood myth, if it did happen as described, then we MUST see the genetic bottleneck signature in EVERY living species of animal, plant, insect and bird. If someone claims to shoot and hit a target, we can look at the target to see if the hole is there. No hole, no score.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Welcome home, pull up a stump and set a spell.
You are correct about all living species (including all land plants) except some fish and water plants showing the same bottleneck signature but there is more. If any of the Biblical Flood myths were true that signature must be very recent in all species.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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There are other indicators that were seen even before we could do the detailed genetic sampling that is possible today. Consider something as simple as a skin graft. Now with humans, a skin graft will almost always get rejected unless it is from a very closely related individual, often a twin. But in Cheetahs, skin grafts from just about any other cheetah will work on any other cheetah. It was only once we developed a method of examining the genetics that we understood why.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Just a bump to help foreveryoung in his journey.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Really the Bible doesn't say all "living" creatures but those on "the face of the land," leaving the sea creatures in the ocean, which were killed in great numbers (I judge by the fossil record) but not totally wiped out. And then, as you point out, the list of creatures also leaves out sea creatures and plants. As you have been shown, that depends on which Biblical flood myth you pick.
The Bible in Genesis 6 writes: 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. but in the fable found in Genesis 7 it says:
Bible in Genesis 7 writes: 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. Note what the Bible actually says Faith because this gets important as you try to deal with the bottleneck. In Genesis 7 is clearly says every living thing. That would be animals like man, birds, fish, pigs, rats, pond scum, insects, single cell organisms, plants, trees, seeds, butterflies lions and tigers and bears oh mys ... every living thing. Or is the Bible jess funning us?
Faith writes: It's simply a way to explain where the sediments came from that formed the strata, and it makes sense, based on the idea of forty days and nights of rain, that pretty much everything that could be dissolved or turned into mud would have been.
And I suppose you have evidence of forty days of rain wearing lots of stuff away? Remember that we can observe far more than forty days of rain almost annually in Asia. It is called the "monsoon." So far it has not dissolved even a single mountain. Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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