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Author Topic:   New Hampshire - Evolution-as-theory bill defeated
Tangle
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Posts: 9583
From: UK
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Member Rating: 6.7


(9)
Message 16 of 29 (656229)
03-17-2012 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
Hitler believed that the human gene pool could be improved by using selective breeding similar to how farmers breed superior cattle strains.
People had been breeding animals selectively thousands of years before Darwin; Darwin simply noticed something about how nature worked. If he'd never had the evolution idea, people would have carried on breeding better wheat and fatter pigs.
And megalominacal, genocidal dictators would still do mad and bad things.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3973 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(4)
Message 17 of 29 (656231)
03-17-2012 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


American Loons
Buzsaw writes:
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
by Jerry Bergman onNovember 1, 1999
Jerry Bergman:
quote:
Encyclopedia of American Loons
(So many loons in America they need an encyclopaedia to document them?)
quote:
Bergman is a dishonest whiner, snower and conspiracy theorist who fabricates stories about persecution of religious scientists. His most nauseating feature is his tendency to snow debates and avoid dealing with devastating objections. Bergman is utterly crazy and ignorant, and his version of the irreducible complexity argument is bizarre even for that mess of an argument.
http://americanloons.blogspot.co.uk/...23-jerry-bergman.html

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


(6)
(1)
Message 18 of 29 (656235)
03-17-2012 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
Gee, thanks Buz for labelling me as someone who holds a "criminal idea". Thank you for suggesting that I would be someone who would not have a problem with the actions of the Nazis and thank you for implying that I'd probably participate in said actions.
What you have done here is alienate every person on this board who accepts evolution - we all hold criminal beliefs, according to you.
What happens when we look at atrocities committed in the name of religion? It's even worse, because often the perpetrators state that they're doing it for God. Does that make Christianity a "criminal idea"? By your logic it does and so from now on we can consider you to be a holder of a "criminal idea".
You are so far off base here that I find it hard to see any charitable reason to explain what you've just said. God forbid that you ever end up in a position of power any higher than weeding the garden, you'd have all acceptors of evolution locked up for conspiracy to commit atrocities.
Your view is utterly repugnant, bigotted and hateful (as in full of hate). What happened to all the love? You know, what God tries to teach us? You call yourself a Christian, yet you spout garbage like this that any self-respecting human, let alone Christian, would not. If you hate us all so much, us criminally inclined people who "preach" a criminal idea, why don't you just bugger off? We don't need or want your bile, venom and insulting false accusations thrown at us. Go lie somewhere else.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(2)
Message 19 of 29 (656257)
03-17-2012 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
You nor anyone else will never counter it, because it's factual
The premise of your argument is that because evolution was described, the Nazis became evil and did bad things to the Jews.
However, the Jews would not have existed if it wasn't for their religion, therefore it's just as coherent an argument that the Jews caused the Nazis to do bad things to the Jews.
After all, no Jews, no Nazis attacking Jews.
The assumption in both arguments is that the Nazis couldn't possibly have come up with a different reason to be angry post WWI and couldn't come up with a different group (Gypsies, Dwarves, Homos, The Left Handed, People who's named end in Vowels, etc) to target.
Flawed argument.
Further, if you really want to play the "this fruit is rotten, cut down the tree" game, all roads lead to religion.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1665 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 20 of 29 (656260)
03-17-2012 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Trixie
03-17-2012 7:27 AM


deluded right wing reactionaries
Hi Trixie,
Amazing what the TP people come up with eh?
quote:
... The bill was House Bill 1148, introduced by Jerry Bergevin (R-District 17), which would have charged the state board of education to "[r]equire evolution to be taught in the public schools of this state as a theory, including the theorists' political and ideological viewpoints and their position on the concept of atheism."
Although HB 1457 as drafted was silent about "intelligent design," the initial request of its sponsor Gary Hopper (R-District 7) was to have a bill drafted that would require "instruction in intelligent design in the public schools." Hopper later told the Concord Monitor (December 29, 2011) that although he would like to see "intelligent design" taught in classrooms, he was not able to find a successful legislative precedent. Instead, he explained, "I want the problems with the current theories to be presented so that kids understand that science doesn't really have all the answers. They are just guessing."
Of course Hopper is just making stuff up out of thin air (while Bergevin is either lying or deluded), so he doesn't have to worry about guessing via science ...
Gee, thanks Buz for labelling me as someone who holds a "criminal idea". Thank you for suggesting that I would be someone who would not have a problem with the actions of the Nazis and thank you for implying that I'd probably participate in said actions.
What you have done here is alienate every person on this board who accepts evolution - we all hold criminal beliefs, according to you.
Jerry Bergevin (R-District 17) and Gary Hopper (R-District 7) are the real criminals in this case, if anyone is, along with all those that didn't laugh in their faces when they first proposed this delusional bill.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2958 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(3)
Message 21 of 29 (656268)
03-17-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Rule 34, subsection II
Hi, Buzz.
The unfortunate truth of the world is that any idea --- good, bad or neutral --- is likely to be misinterpreted, miscontrued, twisted or otherwise used for bad purposes.
Do you agree that there are also some people who have done some pretty horrific things and justified them through Christianity?
People have justified some pretty hideous and stupid actions through conservatism, liberalism, science, religion, atheism, evolution, creation, capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. If we start marking off philosophies and ideas because somebody used (or abused) them to justify wrongdoing, we'd quickly find that there wouldn't be any philosophies or ideas at all.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1727 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 22 of 29 (656270)
03-17-2012 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:31 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
Refute the cited data.
What "data"?

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.3


(2)
Message 23 of 29 (656363)
03-17-2012 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
03-17-2012 11:53 AM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
What "data"?
Add it to the long list of words that Buz has no idea what the meaning is.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 24 of 29 (656374)
03-18-2012 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
03-17-2012 10:41 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
Add it to the long list of words that Buz has no idea what the meaning is.
There's no need to add anything --- the word "data" is already in the dictionary.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4450 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(4)
Message 25 of 29 (656377)
03-18-2012 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
One cannot blame evolution for the NAZIs misinterpretation of it, any more that one can blame Christianity for the right-wing misinterpretation of that.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4597
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 9.1


(3)
Message 26 of 29 (656403)
03-18-2012 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluescat48
03-18-2012 2:37 AM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
I have a hard time not blaming Nazism on people just like buz.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 27 of 29 (656484)
03-19-2012 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise.[8] ”
“ it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. Whoever destroys His work wages war against God's Creation and God's Will.[9] ”
“ The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator.[10] ”
As well as mentioning God, Hitler also extensively referred to Nature as if it was a conscious being. For example:
“ Nature concentrates its greatest attention, not to the maintenance of what already exists but on the selective breeding of offspring in order to carry on the species.[11] ”
Where do we acquire the right to believe that man has not always been what he is now? The study of nature teaches us that, in the animal kingdom just as much as in the vegetable kingdom, variations have occurred. They've occurred within the species, but none of these variations has an importance comparable with that which separates man from the monkey — assuming that this transformation really took place.
Hitler and evolution - RationalWiki
As you can see from above buzz Hitler was more of an Intelligent design Believer then an evolutionist probably because hi dint understand evolution so from this we can see that Intelligent design is part of the EVIL NAZI AGENDA
And because ID = Creationism Creationism is also part of the EVIL NAZI AGENDA
You sir are an evil Nazi bent on putting non Nazis in concentration camps.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4069
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(10)
Message 28 of 29 (656504)
03-19-2012 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-16-2012 10:14 PM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
Hi Buz,
You've gotten a lot of replies for this already, so I hope you still see this one. I'm going to avoid the usual kneejerk reaction, and instead I;m going to say this:
You're partially correct.
However, the Nazis were also wrong.
The Nazi ideals of a "master race" did play into the early ideas of "social Darwinism," the basic idea that the human race can be improved by removing "less fit" individuals from the gene pool. This idea was not unique to the Nazis - America was delving heavily into that same abyss, contemplating euthanasia (note that voluntary euthanasia of terminally and untreatable ill patients is different from forced euthanasia for "undesirables") and actually performing forced sterilizations.
The idea's not even entirely wrong - you can hypothetically remove some heritable diseases and disorders (some are heritable, others occur via mutation and cannot really be reduced through selective breeding or culling, terms that should really be kept to animal husbandry and never used to describe human societies) by removing carriers from the gene pool. It's merely insanely unethical.
But the Nazis weren't actually trying to remove genetic disorders from their national gene pool - or at least those individuals constituted only a small minority of those sent to camps. The Nazi policy was one of racial purity, which of course would have done basically nothing in terms of eliminating heritable disease. Not only were they embracing a repugnant, unethical policy, they weren't even doing it right
Why? Because Darwinism played into their ideals of a "master race," but was not the primary motivation. The "master race" idea already existed, and was already embraced, before Darwinsim came into the fray. Darwinism isn't even really "survival of the fittest." Rather, it's "survival of the fit enough, as determined by natural selection." You don't have to be "on top" to be able to survive.
The "superiority" of the Aryan race and particularly the "inferiority" of the Semitic (Jewish and Arab) race had begun long ago, voiced perhaps most vehemently (before Hitler echoed his words) by none other than Martin Luther in the early 1500s, founder of the Protestant movement. Hitler drew on Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" extensively in his own "Mein Kampf," as well as virtually all of his public speeches.
If the Nazis had actually investigated biology (granted, I'm adding a few decades of research onto what they knew at the time, but that's no excuse as they were acting when they should have known their ignorance), they would have found that what we call "race" is virtually indistinguishable in the genetic code. African, Caucasian, Semitic, Asian, there's no real difference. If you put some samples in a lab, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, that's how close we are. Which should be understandable given that we share more than 95% of our genes with chimpanzees.
In time, continued studies of genetics utterly invalidated the Nazi idea of a "master race." There simply is no such thing.
So scientifically the Nazis were, plainly, unethical idiots.
But what about the notion of social Darwinsim at all?
Human societies don't usually take their cues from nature. We don't eat our young, which happens all the time in nature. We don't eat each other, which happens all the time in nature. We don't base social ethics on the Theory of Gravity. Scientific models of how the Universe works don't always have relevance to human ethics. They're a description of what is in nature, not necessarily what should be in human society.
Oddly enough, libertarians and therefore a large branch of the Republican party here in the states are social Darwinsists, just in a more passive-aggressive manner than the overt action of the Nazis. The libertarian\Republican position of cutting welfare and unemployment benefits and healthcare coverage boils down to "the poor are less fit, let them just die, my second home is more important."
There's a difference between social Darwinism and the Theory of Evolution. One is an (un)ethical system, used to determine right or wrong action, and the other is a scientific theory, a model of one aspect of how nature actually works.
Others have mentioned gravity, and it's accurate - we might as well blame the Theory of Gravity for all the people who kill themselves by jumping from heights, if we think it's appropriate to blame the Theory of Evolution for social Darwinism.
Part of the problem here is the English word "belief," which can carry different meanings. I can "believe in" something, without believing it to be accurate. I can believe something is good, without believing it actually happens.
One can believe that the survival of the fittest (or at least the "fit enough," which is more like actual Dawinism) actually happens in nature, without believing that the practice of social Darwinism is a good and desirable position. Much like I can believe in Democracy without believing that every government is a Democracy, or can believe in peace while still believing that war happens.
How, then, can one honestly suggest that the understanding of how new species arise from pre-existing species through natural selection and mutation is, in itself, "criminal?"

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 245 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(6)
Message 29 of 29 (656515)
03-19-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by frako
03-19-2012 8:39 AM


Re: Nazi Darwinism Connection
I think the best part of that page is the 'micro'evolution section. It correctly points out that people like Buzsaw accept microevolution. That change can occur within a species/kind. And that's what Hitler was attempting: change within a species/kind. The blonde haired blue-eyed babies were still humans. So Buz has accepted as true, the same things that the Nazis believed were true in order to enact their insane plans.
We should immediately ban the teaching of microevolution, it clearly leads to holocausts!
We can always trust the creationists to Godwin a thread about an evolution related bill.


I came here to whinge about being on topic, but got interested by the link. Shiny shiny link. Anyway, *moderator hat* please try and steer things back towards the topic.
Edited by AdminModulous, : admin edit

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