Summations Only

All praise High Priest Adequate. Sure. What's that got to do with Christianity exactly?Seriously though, I agree with you. It's just that the kind of Christianity that someone like foreveryoung practices is not in any way dependant on "ordinary claims for the historical accuracy of the gospels". They're based on the kind of claims that no sane historian would credit for a second. They're based on magic and fantasy. Once foreveryoung realise this, he's going to find it difficult to keep his rich fantasy life intact, whether that's Genesis, the Gospels or any other part of the Bible.If Fundamentalist Christians were to treat the Bible as a set of historical documents like any other, their entire religion would come crashing down and rightly so. I think that foreveryoung kind of half realises this and that's why he can't countenance treating the Bible as anything other than perfect. He dare not look behind the curtain in regards to Genesis, or any other part of the Bible, because he knows he won't like what he sees.You're quite right that an ordinary historical analysis of the gospels would not be affected by the accuracy of Genesis, but I don't think that's what Fundie Christians are engaged in. If only.Mutate and Survive

Yes- Oni

Not around here, at least not without compensation for that. I could literally have everyone laughing anytime I wanted, but tight pockets are preventing it.If I were you, I'd petition for this to change. Tell the management you want me paid for my humorous posts. Hopefully if enough of you do this, we can put Dark Oni to rest and get one with Funny Oni again.Come on guys, Straggler and Dronester have suffered enough without me.- Oni

The only way I can make sense of what your saying is if the point is that christianity looses its worth because it didn't come up with the valuable truth itself. Let me outline it: =======================================================================
Humanists have adopted much of the morality found in the bible. You could completely eradicate Christianity today and that morality would remain. The problem would come if anyone ever started to question the basis for that morality. Without the biblical basis, all that is left is utilitarianism. Without a genesis that is absolutely, literally true, there is no rational reason to accept the bible as a basis for morality that goes beyond utilitarian purposes.Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

Why don't you go shove it up your ass?Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

No as such, no.I, for example, did not form my sense of morality by going through the Bible and picking out the good bits, nor could I have done so, since in order to pick out the good bits I'd already have to have a sense of morality.Any resemblance between my morality and that found in the Bible is therefore a consequence of the fact that the people who wrote the Bible were not completely evil and stupid, not that I "adopted" my ideas from them. Yay! Well, so long as it has one.Biblical morality seems awfully utilitarian too. The reason for keeping God's commandments is that if you don't he'll fry you and if you do he'll give you cake or something. That's utilitarian. And with a Genesis that is absolutely, literally true ... well, again, the moral of that little episode seems to be: "You should do as God says or he'll hurt you". That's a utilitarian reason.As for accepting the bible as a basis for morality, have you stoned any adulterers lately? How about disobedient children? Idolators? People who pick up sticks on Saturday? Aren't you worried that God will cook you on his Rotisserie of Wrath?Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

The key word there being "much". Yes, we have adopted much of the morality found in the Bible, but there are other bits that we reject. The genocide, the slavery, the misogyny, the murder of children, those bits we're not so keen to emulate. Curiously (and fortunately), neither are you. Isn't that odd? I agree. Christianity would not be the only source, but yes, that morality would remain. Okay, now that's just bonkers. I don't see how that follows at all.Nonetheless, I think that even utilitarianism is a bit of an improvement upon slavery and genocide don't you? I think we can live without that sort of "morality" from your "perfect" Bible.Mutate and Survive

Wrong. Empathy - the emotion that creates the golden rule, do as you would be done by - is built into people. It's source is ourselves so it's not surprising that you find it in the writings of many of our social organisations, religious or secular. Exactly You've talked yourself full circle. As we don't need the bible for morality, it's loss can not matter to that morality. And as there is nothing absolute in the bible anyway your point is doubly mute.

The Bible didn't originate and doesn't own morality. Many cultures and religions, even those predating the Bible and even the atheistic former Soviet Union, have morality similar to the Bible.Of course, the Bible also supports genocide and stoning and other cruel and primitive acts, so one can't accept everything in the Bible as moral. So how is one to judge what in the Bible is moral and what is not? As Jar noted, it could only be our innate human sense of morality. Extremely common argument from evangelical Christians: Now *that's* utilitarian!--Percy

WWJD.Can I assume self-flagellation is next? --Percy

You failed to describe why this is a problem of some kind. Furthermore, there are other non-biblically based moral systems than utilitrarianism. For instance, these:

State consequentialism
Ethical egoism
Ethical altruism
Rule consequentialism
Motive consequentialism
Negative consequentialism
Teleological ethics

Full circle huh? My point has been consistent throughout. If you destroy the legitimacy of the bible, you have made Christianity worthless. Theistic evolutionists here have objected and claim Christianity still provides morality to the world. My argument, and one you seem to agree with, is that Christianity based on morality alone offers nothing significantly different than what can be found in a myriad of places mentioned by tangle. That is why I said you might as well go to an alcoholics anonymous meeting if that is what you are looking for.
However, if you are seeking ultimate meaning and purpose in life, or the absolute truth regarding the most important things in life, you have no reason to look for it in the bible if you cannot trust that it is perfectly true throughout.

These are things charlatans offer.Why does life have a meaning and a purpose? What is this absolute truth of which you speak? Even if I did feel a need for any of these things a book of bronze age writings and myths from 2000 years ago is the last places I would look. I would be more likely to look at a recent book as it would have considered the latest scientific discoveries and knowledge.The answers to what you seem to be seeking are in science not mythology.

Why do you care about Christianity? Isn't it your relationship with God that counts? You don't need Christianity to mediate your relationship with God. We already know this is your position. Repeating it again doesn't help it make any more sense. People have already explained why it doesn't make sense. A meaningful response would explain how it *does* make sense.--Percy

It would seem that you have done this all on your own. By requiring a literal Genesis you have ensured its destruction. You are pitting the Bible against reality.