Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 214 of 531 (656756)
03-21-2012 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
03-21-2012 9:52 AM


Re: Richard Roberts In Action
A couple decades ago there was an expos book, Salvation for Sale, written by a former staff member of Pat Robertson's TV network; the author had been a major force in bringing the network's programming up closer to commercial standards. He witnessed Pat Robertson do a healing. An old man with ashen complexion was wheeled up in his wheelchair and Robertson prayed over him. And as the author watched, the man's complexion turned rosy and his spirits visibly lifted; the man had been healed. Then a short time later, the author decided to do a follow-up (good for the TV show) and discovered that the man had died a few days after the "healing."
Placebo effect in action? How often do faith healers do any follow-up checks to see whether the fix had taken?
True story: I had heard of the book and went into the neighborhood Crown Bookstore (which should date this story) and asked for it:
"Do you have Salvation for Sale?"
"No, but there's a church right down the street from here."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 03-21-2012 9:52 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Coyote, posted 03-21-2012 8:50 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 442 of 531 (871668)
02-08-2020 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Phat
02-07-2020 4:52 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
Of course, we have These if we dare trust that they are not yet another scam.
I seem to recall having heard something about not using bare links. If you want to bring up ideas about martyrs, then you should just do so and not hide it with a bare link. Even better, since martyrs for all kinds of movements have existed, shouldn't you also present why you would think that bringing up martyrs would be relevent?
Another example of a martyr would be Host Wessel, a young Sturmabteilung (SA) brown-shirt murdered by a Communist:
quote:
Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 — 23 February 1930), commonly known as Horst Wessel, was a Berlin leader of the Nazi Party's stormtroopers, the Sturmabteilung (SA). After his murder in 1930, he was made into a martyr for the Nazi cause by Joseph Goebbels.
Wessel first joined a number of youth groups and extreme right-wing paramilitary groups, but later resigned from them and joined the SA, the brownshirted street-fighting stormtroopers of the Nazi Party. He rose to command several SA squads and districts. On 14 January 1930, he was shot in the head by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD). Albrecht "Ali" Hhler was arrested and charged with his murder. Hhler was initially sentenced to six years in prison, but was forcibly taken out of jail and killed by the SA after the Nazis came to power.
Wessel's funeral was given wide attention in Berlin, with many of the Nazi elite in attendance. After his death, he became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany. The march he had written the lyrics to was renamed the "Horst-Wessel-Lied" ("Horst Wessel Song"), and became the official anthem of the Nazi Party. After Adolf Hitler came to national power in 1933, the song became the co-national anthem of Germany, along with the first verse of the "Deutschlandlied", also known as "Deutschland ber alles".
I will not try to summarize the sordid and convoluted tale of Wessel's murder except to say that it had almost nothing to do with the ideological basis for his being a martyr. My point is that the mere existence of martyrs says nothing for the validity or value of that for which they were martyred (or made into a martyr). Praise be to Godwin.
There's also the issue of many Christians' obsession with martyrdom and the problems that it causes.
On the social and political level, it plays out with hypocritical wailing about being persecuted by everybody. To be sure, religious discrimination and persecution do exist, but in the USA it's the Christians who are doing the discriminating and persecuting of others, not the other way around. In practically the same breath in which they point to other intolerant countries where Christians are a minority lacking political power to stop the imposition of the governing religion, they then seek to use political power to impose their own governing religion on non-Christians. And when the laws and the Constitution thwart their efforts, then they claim that they're being persecuted against by not being allowed to persecute others. And when non-Christians speak out against their efforts, then they start whining that every hates them just "because they love Jesus" (an actual reason an actual creationist gave for his often vicious pathological lying).
Here's a pertinent illustration. I tried to find this scene on YouTube from the Bob Newhart Show (the one with Suzanne Pleshette), one of the show's many short scenes of Bob with a patient (quoting from memory from about 40 years ago):
quote:
Bob's patient is a bitter middle-aged black man who continually complains that everybody hates him just because he's black.
Patient: Everybody hates me just because I'm black.
Bob: Have you ever considered that maybe the reason people don't like you is because you are not a pleasant person to be around?
Patient (experiencing a breakthrough): Wow, I never thought about it that way. Thanks, Doc.

IOW, haven't our USA "persecuted and hated Christians" ever considered that the reason why people reacted so negatively to them is because those Christians' constant efforts at persecution and attacking other beliefs (which is the basis of proselytizing) make them very unpleasant to be around? And then to add insult to injury, once they have driven you to hating them for their behavior they insist that it's God that you hate.
So how can that kind of conduct lead to successful proselytizing? A posting from Quora reposted by Ed Babinski on FaceBook last summer says that conversion is not the goal:
quote:

Why do people get angry when I try to share the word of God with them? I only do it because I care about them deeply and don't want them to end up in hell. I feel like some people avoid me because of this. Is there any way to get through to them?
by Doug Robertson, studied at University of Maine
Updated Dec 11 2018
The entire process is not what you think it is.
It is specifically designed to be uncomfortable for the other person because it isn't about converting them to your religion. It is about manipulating you so you can't leave yours.
If this tactic was about converting people it would be considered a horrible failure. It recruits almost no one who isn't already willing to join. Bake sales are more effective recruiting tools.
On the other hand, it is extremely effective at creating a deep tribal feeling among its own members.
The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the "others". These uncomfortable feelings go away when they come back to their congregation, the "Tribe".
If you take a good look at the process it becomes fairly clear. In most cases, the religious person starts out from their own group, who is encouraging and supportive. They are then sent out into the harsh world where people repeatedly reject them. Mainly because they are trained to be so annoying.
These brave witnesses then return from the cruel world to their congregation where they are treated like returning heroes. They are now safe. They bond as they share their experiences of reaching out to the godless people to bring them the truth. They share the otherness they experience.
Once again they will learn that the only place they are accepted is with the people who think as they do. It isn't safe to leave the group. The world is your enemy, but we love you.
This is a pain reward cycle that is a common brainwashing technique. The participants become more and more reliant on the "Tribe" because they know that "others" reject them.
Mix in some ritualized chanting, possibly a bit of monotonous repetition of instructions, add a dash of fear of judgment by an unseen, but all-powerful entity who loves you if you do as you are told and you get a pretty powerful mix.
Sorry, I have absolutely no wish to participate in someones brainwashing ritual.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Phat, posted 02-07-2020 4:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:35 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 445 of 531 (871676)
02-08-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Phat
02-08-2020 3:35 PM


Re: Christianity Was Originally A Minority Belief
So then. You take a single sentence out of the reposting of a complete message that I in turn reposted here and you misrepresent it as something that I myself wrote? All to redirect attention away from what that quoted message was saying?
Wow. Just wow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 450 of 531 (871688)
02-09-2020 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by jar
02-08-2020 4:41 PM


Re: From Another Topic...
The audience at TRUMP rallies is 100% believers.
At my OLLI we have a class, Cyber Security and Warfare, which is held every other Wednesday. We covered this tangentially last Wednesday.
Two classes ago we looked at big data and how our location and movements are being through our mobile phones. That includes a practice called geo-fencing in which the GPS coordinates for a particular location is mapped out and all phones entering that area are logged in a big data database. Even though the big data collector normally doesn't have access to tie your phone's ID to your personal identity, that phone can still be targeted with ads and propaganda.
The example we were given two classes ago was an abortion provider whose building had been geo-fenced and all phones entering that building were logged. Then that big data was either sold or given to an anti-abortion organization who, with the assumption that those phones belonged to women seeking an abortion, flooded those phones with anti-abortion messages.
In this last class, the class facilitator cited a source as saying that Trump rallies were geo-fenced and that at least half of the attendees of those rallies had not voted for Trump before, but were apparently lured by curiosity, etc. Then the Trump campaign targeted the phone IDs collected with pro-Trump propaganda.
So then the audience at Trump rallies is not necessarily 100% believers, but rather also include many curious who are then narrowly targeted for conversion into Cult 45.
Edited by dwise1, : added link for what OLLI (Osher Lifelong Learning Institutes) is
Edited by dwise1, : "the curious" --> "many curious"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by jar, posted 02-08-2020 4:41 PM jar has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 484 of 531 (871756)
02-11-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by jar
02-11-2020 1:29 PM


Re: feel all better now?
GDR writes:
You said somewhere along the line that you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus
No, I say it doesn't matter if it happened or not.
Back on CompuServe in the late 80's in the Religion Forum's "SCIENCE & RELIGION" Section (where the creationism discussions were), there was a crazed Christian named "Suds". He claimed to be a mathematician who invented Gray Code (though Frank Gray died two decades prior in 1969) and couldn't work anymore after suffering a stroke. He promoted odd forms of word magick and had even claimed that since Hamurabi predated Moses by centuries, that meant that Hamurabi had copied his code from Moses.
But Suds did come up one very good point: It is not important whether the claims of Christianity are true or not, only that people believe that they are true. The history of Western Civilization for the past two millennia was based almost entirely on belief in Christianity, not on whether there was any truth at all to Christianity.
Like Rick Perry said, even a broken clock is right once a day.
(Perry succeeded G.W. Bush as Governor of Texas, which has led Texans to refer to Bush as "the smart one.")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 02-11-2020 1:29 PM jar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024