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Author | Topic: Did Jesus Declare All Food Clean? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No. I agree with Watson, that Jesus was addressing the issue of hand washing before eating. IMO, that added statement shows that the author of Mark didn't know Jesus or the disciples.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Didn't say it was the best proof. It is just one of many. When we look at the same story in Matthew, we see the author made it clear that the issue of the discussion was hand washing.
Matthew 15:20 "...These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" quote:As I understand it, his followers did follow the food laws. From the book "a History of Christianity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953. To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism. We also see in Acts 15 that the decision was made not to require that Gentiles follow the laws of Moses except for what they listed in verse 29. Even in that debate, no mention of Jesus doing away with the food laws for Jewish followers. I understand what you saying about the translation issue. The idea of clean and unclean had several levels of meaning. I think the comment purging all meats/foods referred to removing them from the system not declaring the food laws void.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
This is a more appropriate thread for this since you brought it up again.
Please show me clearly the Greek that supports this quote that in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean. I've shown you that it isn't in the Greek. Mark 7:19 Greek Jesus was Jewish. He didn't undo the food laws. Biblical Dietary Laws Below you will find our argument at your fingertips.
GDR writes:
The Jews at the time of Christ had numerous food laws, primarily as detailed in Leviticus 11. Both Jesus and Paul rejected them which of course put them on the wrong side of Jewish leadership at the time. Jesus says this in Matthew 15.
quote: Jesus isn’t just saying that the rules are changing; He is saying that the original food laws from the OT were rules taught by men and that they were wrong. Paul in Romans 14 writes:
quote:Message 251 PurpleDawn writes:
Jesus did not reject the food laws. In Matthew 15:1-20 as in Mark 7:1-23 Jesus was talking about hand washing before eating. It wasn't about what was being eaten. I don't think handing washing was in the laws given by God in the OT. Besides, the Book of Matthew may have been written as a satire. Message 1 Paul did not reject the food laws. Romans 14 is more than likely dealing with meat offered to idols. Some Jews stayed away from all meats for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. The Fence around the Torah was a better safe than sorry approach. So they wouldn't accidentally break any of the laws. I haven't found a law from God in the OT that says his people couldn't eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He just didn't want them worshiping idols.
Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. NIV Basically, eat and don't worry about everyone elses rituals/beliefs or lack thereof. He isn't doing away with the food laws.
Message 253GDR writes:
purple dawn writes: Jesus did not reject the food laws. In Matthew 15:1-20 as in Mark 7:1-23 Jesus was talking about hand washing before eating. It wasn't about what was being eaten. I don't think handing washing was in the laws given by God in the OT. Besides, the Book of Matthew may have been written as a satire. Message 1 Mark 7:quote:(Emphasis mine) Mark even clarifies it for us that Jesus is saying that all foods are clean. purpledawn writes: Paul did not reject the food laws. Romans 14 is more than likely dealing with meat offered to idols. Some Jews stayed away from all meats for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. The Fence around the Torah was a better safe than sorry approach. So they wouldn't accidentally break any of the laws. I haven't found a law from God in the OT that says his people couldn't eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He just didn't want them worshiping idols. Here is more of Romans 14:quote:The question of food that has been offered to idols is dealt with separately in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians to deal with a specific question in that church. In his letter to the Romans it is clear that he is dealing with all food. Message 254PurpleDawn writes:
quote:Unfortunately, since we are working with translations, it is difficult to read the stories as we do any other book. The translations aren't all the same. That's why when there seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the understanding, I like to dig a bit deeper into the translation and see if I'm missing something. Interlinear and Parallel Bibles are handy. I use Biblos.com. Mark 7:19 InterlinearThe interlinear doesn't copy well, so you have to go to the link. Notice the words "purifying all the foods". The verse doesn't say that Jesus declared all foods clean. Mark 7:19 ParallelYou can read the rest at the link. Young's Literal Translation because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.' Young's Literal Translation goes along with the point of what Jesus is saying concerning hand washing. The body is going to get rid of anything it can't use for nutrition. IOW, dirt from your hands is not going to survive digestion. In 1 Corinthians The hand washing rituals were commanded by tradition, not the God of Abraham. What we see in the OT are more common sense cleanliness rules. (Leviticus 15)
Washing the Hands - Judaism The rabbis of the Talmud derived the requirement of washing the hands as a consequence of the statement in Leviticus 15:11. The Talmud inferred the specific requirements of hand-washing from these passages. The Jews seemed to have made excess rules out of fear as I mentioned in Message 253 concerning the "fence" around the Torah.
quote:But he isn't negating the food laws. Romans 14: Who Is The Weak Brother? You're not showing me that my interpretation of passages is wrong. You're just repeating yourself. I'm not going to keep jumping through hoops as you add verses. You should have an understanding of how I read the Bible.
Message 255PurpleDawn writes:
So we have to understand what they are telling their audience, not what we want to hear. Just like the food issue in Message 253 and Message 255. Neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the food laws. Jesus addressed a traditional ritual and Paul basically was trying to make it easier for Jews and Gentiles to eat together. The early followers of Jesus still kept Jewish law.
To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism. --From the book "a History of Christianity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953. Message 259GDR writes:
OK so we don’t agree about how that scripture is to be understood. I still maintain that both Paul and Jesus were very clear that the food laws were not in effect.
Message 260PurpleDawn writes: Since the Jewish followers still followed the Jewish laws it is clear that neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the Jewish food laws. GDR writes:
But your arguments don’t fit the text. Mark even goes so far as to make it crystal clear when he says, (as I quoted earlier), that in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean.
Message 269
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