Labor Pains In Colorado

Perhaps that's a reasonable argument. I can think of a number of reasons why it wouldn't be, but I want to explore what in your view does determine how much a certain amount of work is worth?If we can establish that, then we can see if the value so determined is worth a person's time, given that he does have to be self supporting in order to make it to work every day.

And have you analyzed the worth of grocery baggers based on this criteria to determine that the value of bagging is less than min. wage? Because it seems to me that such an evaluation is too complex to hand wave. The fact that you and your buddies don't like baggers isn't a serious analysis.

Your analysis is far too simplistic. If grocery bagging generated a break or an even better return on investment, hiring baggers might still be a bad bet for a capitalist, because the investor might do better by having more cashiers and operating more registers.Further, no person is completely responsible for even one penny of revenue coming into the grocery store. Who wants unthreshed grain?

Yes, but that does not mean that a profit cannot be made by hand threshing. It may mean that a larger profit can be made using hand threshing. True, but if your only observation is that businesses don't use baggers then you haven't show which of those distinct possibilities rules out businesses employing baggers. And only one of those possibilities is based on your simplistic method of valuing labor.

Which means that the government does not take their money.A tax refund is not income. Anyone can adjust their withholding so that they get a minimal tax refund without affecting their tax liability in any way.

This question does not really get at Frako's comment. There is no single country that is the TOP DOG in every industry. But as an example, the US is clearly not the number 1 source for new television technology. That role has long since been taken over by South Korea, with Japan not far behind.I'm not saying that Frako's history is correct, but is there any question that the US is not the Top Dog in many industries in which it was the top manufacturer shortly after World War II? Is this even a question worth arguing about?Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

The middle class includes people who are currently able to live beyond paycheck-to-paycheck, but who, given fairly minor changes in circumstances might well find themselves living on the street. It is certainly the case that people in the middle class have descendants and relatives that are at risk of being out on the street.People on the street give a rat's ass about what happens to people just above them because they aspire to join their ranks at some point and because many of them are from middle class backgrounds. And if by grace, you are living in your mom's basement, surely you care about what happens to mom.I must be missing your real point, because the attitude reflected in your post as I read it seems incredibly short sighted and crass.
I suggest that you actually get out an actually rub some elbows with the homeless in your area and find out how they really feel before spouting off academic nonsense.

I don't know of any reason to believe that other than pure nationalistic pride. Yeah, those markets where we got our butts kicked were probably sour anyways. Yes, that was a gross overstatement. Yet you did not choose to address Frako's point by addressing what was fairly clearly hyperbole. Instead you chose to ask for the name of the new "Top Dog". Were you expecting Frako to brag about his own country?It is certainly the case that the US is not the manufacturing power house that it was shortly after WWII when large segments of the Japanese and European economies were destroyed, and China was a closed off mess. Really? And when people in the US say similar things, what is their POV? Whatever motivates Frako to say what he says, he does have a point.

Yes. Not being able to competitively manufacture a product because of not being able to pay tiny wages would constitute a butt kicking if the goal is participating in the market for that product. I don't see the part of your post that disputes my point.Nobody in the US is making TVs, and as a result, nobody in the US is in a position to come up with technological improvements that the manufacturers come up as a direct result of doing day to day manufacturing. I don't care what our excuses are for being in that position. Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display. The capability to make those things does not exist in this country.

Is that the only thing I discussed in my post? I find your response to completely miss the mark.As I expressed, the lower classes' lot is intimately intertwined with the lot of the those people who are barely avoiding joining them. With the exception of those poor people who expect to hit the lottery next week, there is ample reason for them to care about the middle class.It seems to me that you believe that the lower class and homeless share your own beliefs about how society ought to be organized. My impression and experience is that such beliefs are not reality. Most homeless people want a fair shot at an opportunity and not a new society where everything is free.

I find this accusation laughable.Have you ever visited a Korean LCD factory? Because it turns out that I have done so. I have also worked closely with the Korean engineers who file patents on the involved technology. It is in fact the case that Korean engineers live on much lower salaries than do US engineers. I'd suggest a salary deflation of about 3. Korean patent attorneys are paid at a similar discount.Of course in the US, any attempt to pay similar wages will simply result in attorneys and engineers finding other places to work. But by no account are Koreans making LCDs involved in slave labor and nor is the labor carried out by 8-12 year olds. Nor are the workers risking life and limb.The LCD factories are highly automated, and the manufacturing requires clean room and near clean room conditions. Young college graduates consider those manufacturing positions to be great jobs.I'm not aware that Koreans LCD manufacturers are even being accused of child labor or labor abuses of the type you are suggesting. You simply don't know whereof you speak.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Jon, I've already done so.FWIW, I work with unemployed homeless veterans and unemployed seniors on a daily basis.

Well, that does happen to be the example we were discussing. I take it that your argument does not apply to the LCD manufacturing industry.I'll also note that your example is about a 39 year civil servant. What I find hilarious is the that as a patent attorney in DC, I found it necessary to embark on a 1.5 hour (round trip) commute to DC and to work 10-12 hours a day. Engineers, at least those who can find work, routinely make something approaching 100k after about 15 years of experience. Entry level attorneys in at least some markets make nearly twice that. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

That's not quite right. I said big screen LCDs and smartphone displays, both of which are flat screen displays that may well be LCDs from the same Koren, Japanese, Taiwanese sources. Perhaps you are thinking about how iPhones are assembled in China, but I would expect (without having checked) that the Chinese are importing the actual display devices.

Yes I could afford a couple of cars, with one of them being > 20 years old, with an air conditioner that does not work. My comment was not intended to be a complaint. But surely compensation that was 1/3 of what I was getting paid would not be considered slave labor.