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Author Topic:   Labor Pains In Colorado
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 166 (656856)
03-22-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Jon
03-22-2012 2:21 PM


How much it costs to raise a family has nothing to do with how much a certain amount of work is worth.

Perhaps that's a reasonable argument. I can think of a number of reasons why it wouldn't be, but I want to explore what in your view does determine how much a certain amount of work is worth?

If we can establish that, then we can see if the value so determined is worth a person's time, given that he does have to be self supporting in order to make it to work every day.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 2:21 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 6:26 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 166 (656873)
03-22-2012 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Jon
03-22-2012 6:26 PM


The only factor to consider is how much income the work can generate. Other factors will affect how much someone can actually get for doing a certain amount of work (such as the labor pool size for the given occupation, etc.), but as far as actual worth, there is only one consideration.

And have you analyzed the worth of grocery baggers based on this criteria to determine that the value of bagging is less than min. wage? Because it seems to me that such an evaluation is too complex to hand wave. The fact that you and your buddies don't like baggers isn't a serious analysis.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 6:26 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 6:47 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 166 (656884)
03-22-2012 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Jon
03-22-2012 6:47 PM


For the majority of stores, grocery bagging is not a service that can generate more income for the store than $7.25/hour.

Your analysis is far too simplistic. If grocery bagging generated a break or an even better return on investment, hiring baggers might still be a bad bet for a capitalist, because the investor might do better by having more cashiers and operating more registers.

Further, no person is completely responsible for even one penny of revenue coming into the grocery store.

by-hand grain threshers

Who wants unthreshed grain?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 6:47 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 7:54 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 166 (656899)
03-22-2012 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Jon
03-22-2012 7:54 PM


Nobody. But nobody wants to pay someone to do it by hand either.

Yes, but that does not mean that a profit cannot be made by hand threshing. It may mean that a larger profit can be made using hand threshing.

Sure. The business will evaluate all of the things it can do based on the return they provide and then do the things that provide the most return. And offering customer services that cost more money than they bring in will not be on that list of options.

True, but if your only observation is that businesses don't use baggers then you haven't show which of those distinct possibilities rules out businesses employing baggers. And only one of those possibilities is based on your simplistic method of valuing labor.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 7:54 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Jon, posted 03-23-2012 1:11 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 166 (656900)
03-22-2012 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Jon
03-22-2012 7:49 PM


Re: Assumptions a plenty inbound
Many poor people get their tax liability reduced to zero

Which means that the government does not take their money.

A tax refund is not income. Anyone can adjust their withholding so that they get a minimal tax refund without affecting their tax liability in any way.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Jon, posted 03-22-2012 7:49 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Jon, posted 03-23-2012 1:17 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 166 (657057)
03-25-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by onifre
03-25-2012 11:49 AM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
But let me just ask, who is the Top Dog now? And why?

This question does not really get at Frako's comment. There is no single country that is the TOP DOG in every industry. But as an example, the US is clearly not the number 1 source for new television technology. That role has long since been taken over by South Korea, with Japan not far behind.

I'm not saying that Frako's history is correct, but is there any question that the US is not the Top Dog in many industries in which it was the top manufacturer shortly after World War II? Is this even a question worth arguing about?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 11:49 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 12:39 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 132 of 166 (657058)
03-25-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
03-24-2012 4:50 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Whatever driving they are doing, it is clearly not helping people living in debt because they do not even earn enough to live paycheck-to-paycheck, or the people living on the street because they do not have the ability to live in debt

So why should these people give a rat's ass about the middle class?

The middle class includes people who are currently able to live beyond paycheck-to-paycheck, but who, given fairly minor changes in circumstances might well find themselves living on the street. It is certainly the case that people in the middle class have descendants and relatives that are at risk of being out on the street.

People on the street give a rat's ass about what happens to people just above them because they aspire to join their ranks at some point and because many of them are from middle class backgrounds. And if by grace, you are living in your mom's basement, surely you care about what happens to mom.

I must be missing your real point, because the attitude reflected in your post as I read it seems incredibly short sighted and crass.
I suggest that you actually get out an actually rub some elbows with the homeless in your area and find out how they really feel before spouting off academic nonsense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 03-24-2012 4:50 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 3:13 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 166 (657067)
03-25-2012 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by onifre
03-25-2012 12:39 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
But it's also fair to point out that, at any point, the US can gain control of any market it wanted to given that that was the goal.

I don't know of any reason to believe that other than pure nationalistic pride. Yeah, those markets where we got our butts kicked were probably sour anyways.

The US has never been Top Dog in ALL industires

Yes, that was a gross overstatement. Yet you did not choose to address Frako's point by addressing what was fairly clearly hyperbole. Instead you chose to ask for the name of the new "Top Dog". Were you expecting Frako to brag about his own country?

It is certainly the case that the US is not the manufacturing power house that it was shortly after WWII when large segments of the Japanese and European economies were destroyed, and China was a closed off mess.

I find it funny though, Frako is talking from a purely jealous POV.

Really? And when people in the US say similar things, what is their POV? Whatever motivates Frako to say what he says, he does have a point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 12:39 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:11 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 166 (657078)
03-25-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by onifre
03-25-2012 3:11 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Our butt kicked? In what specifically...AND, how did it lose top ranking? Poor product? Low quality product? Or, not being able to keep up with low to extremely low wages in 3rd world countries who's workers are being exploited?

Yes. Not being able to competitively manufacture a product because of not being able to pay tiny wages would constitute a butt kicking if the goal is participating in the market for that product.

But then again those countries aren't winning because of a better ability to create a better product but because of shitty wages paid to workers that make their products cheaper.

I don't see the part of your post that disputes my point.

Nobody in the US is making TVs, and as a result, nobody in the US is in a position to come up with technological improvements that the manufacturers come up as a direct result of doing day to day manufacturing. I don't care what our excuses are for being in that position. Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display. The capability to make those things does not exist in this country.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:11 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:46 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 139 of 166 (657079)
03-25-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jon
03-25-2012 3:13 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
People care what happens to their loved ones and their friends.

Is that the only thing I discussed in my post? I find your response to completely miss the mark.

As I expressed, the lower classes' lot is intimately intertwined with the lot of the those people who are barely avoiding joining them. With the exception of those poor people who expect to hit the lottery next week, there is ample reason for them to care about the middle class.

It seems to me that you believe that the lower class and homeless share your own beliefs about how society ought to be organized. My impression and experience is that such beliefs are not reality. Most homeless people want a fair shot at an opportunity and not a new society where everything is free.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 3:13 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 4:43 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 166 (657083)
03-25-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by onifre
03-25-2012 3:46 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
We absolutely could, and DO have all the necessary tools for it. What we don't have is children ages 8-12 willing to lose an arm for it.

I find this accusation laughable.

Have you ever visited a Korean LCD factory? Because it turns out that I have done so. I have also worked closely with the Korean engineers who file patents on the involved technology. It is in fact the case that Korean engineers live on much lower salaries than do US engineers. I'd suggest a salary deflation of about 3. Korean patent attorneys are paid at a similar discount.

Of course in the US, any attempt to pay similar wages will simply result in attorneys and engineers finding other places to work. But by no account are Koreans making LCDs involved in slave labor and nor is the labor carried out by 8-12 year olds. Nor are the workers risking life and limb.

The LCD factories are highly automated, and the manufacturing requires clean room and near clean room conditions. Young college graduates consider those manufacturing positions to be great jobs.

I'm not aware that Koreans LCD manufacturers are even being accused of child labor or labor abuses of the type you are suggesting. You simply don't know whereof you speak.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 3:46 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 6:33 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 166 (657085)
03-25-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jon
03-25-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Then present some of those reasons.

Jon, I've already done so.

FWIW, I work with unemployed homeless veterans and unemployed seniors on a daily basis.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 4:43 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 03-25-2012 5:57 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 166 (657092)
03-25-2012 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by onifre
03-25-2012 6:33 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Didn't mean to make it specific to LCD manufacturing in Korea.

Well, that does happen to be the example we were discussing. I take it that your argument does not apply to the LCD manufacturing industry.

I'll also note that your example is about a 39 year civil servant. What I find hilarious is the that as a patent attorney in DC, I found it necessary to embark on a 1.5 hour (round trip) commute to DC and to work 10-12 hours a day.

Which, having friends who are both engineers and lawyers, the money they get here isn't ALL that much either.

Engineers, at least those who can find work, routinely make something approaching 100k after about 15 years of experience. Entry level attorneys in at least some markets make nearly twice that.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 6:33 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:09 PM NoNukes has responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 166 (657096)
03-25-2012 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by onifre
03-25-2012 7:09 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
No, you said LCD's AND smartphones.

That's not quite right. I said big screen LCDs and smartphone displays, both of which are flat screen displays that may well be LCDs from the same Koren, Japanese, Taiwanese sources.

me writes:


Nobody in the US is capable of making a competitive large screen LCD or small smartphone display.

Perhaps you are thinking about how iPhones are assembled in China, but I would expect (without having checked) that the Chinese are importing the actual display devices.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:09 PM onifre has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 166 (657098)
03-25-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by onifre
03-25-2012 7:09 PM


Re: Topic: Saving Labor Unions
Again you focus on just one portion of it. What about vacation time? Wages? I'm sure you could have afforded a car? Or maybe you were in your air conditioned car? How nice were your lunches? How nice was your office? Etc...

Yes I could afford a couple of cars, with one of them being > 20 years old, with an air conditioner that does not work. My comment was not intended to be a complaint. But surely compensation that was 1/3 of what I was getting paid would not be considered slave labor.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:09 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by onifre, posted 03-25-2012 7:56 PM NoNukes has responded

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