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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 106 of 432 (657508)
03-29-2012 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by bridgebuilder
03-28-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Agnostic
bridgebuilder writes:
Perhaps science backs reality,...
There's no perhaps about it. Science represents our best effort to understand reality.
...but perhaps not. What if science is stuck in a scenario similar to Plato's cave because it deliberately ignores the supernatural? Science will remain blissfully unaware I suppose.
It's the Noble prize for whomever figures out how to scientifically study the supernatural. It isn't like there's any lack of motivation.
The funny thing about the supernatural is that the more we discover about the world and universe in which we live, the fewer things are ascribed to the supernatural. The history of the supernatural is that it blossoms during periods of ignorance.
Science uses evidence as the glue that connects our understanding to the actual universe. A supernatural that leaves no detectable impression on reality is the same as no supernatural at all.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-28-2012 4:37 PM bridgebuilder has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-29-2012 7:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 107 of 432 (657509)
03-29-2012 8:53 AM


Off-topic Comment
The condescending comments about how we can help you learn and so forth are bugging me, hope they're not bugging you. The learning goes both ways.
The people here know a whole heck of a lot, but no one's voice is gospel. The posts I like best are the ones that clearly state a position and then back it with evidence. This has been stated famously several different ways, but in my own words, he who was convinced without evidence has an opinion, not knowledge.
--Percy

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 432 (657518)
03-29-2012 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dr Adequate
03-28-2012 11:41 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Sorry but I see no indication of the super natural in that example, simply something yet unexplained.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-28-2012 11:41 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 109 of 432 (657521)
03-29-2012 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Panda
03-29-2012 6:06 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
There was no answer, just word salad.
If you are saying that the way something is identified as supernatural is by someone claiming it is supernatural, then that is so open that it is meaningless, useless and worthless.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Panda, posted 03-29-2012 6:06 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Panda, posted 03-29-2012 10:16 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 432 (657523)
03-29-2012 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Straggler
03-29-2012 6:31 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
But you still have not said anything about how you investigate or identify or determine if something is supernatural as opposed to just unknown.
Even if all of the things you list did exist, what makes them supernatural as opposed to being caused by some yet unknown natural cause?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 6:31 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 9:46 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 111 of 432 (657524)
03-29-2012 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
03-29-2012 9:32 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:
But you still have not said anything about how you investigate or identify or determine if something is supernatural as opposed to just unknown.
But what is it that stops us studying it in either case? It is you who is claiming that supernatural entities and phenomena cannot be investigated. How do you know this?
jar writes:
Even if all of the things you list did exist, what makes them supernatural as opposed to being caused by some yet unknown natural cause?
The fact that they are defined as being inherently unable to be explained by natural causes because they are magical or fantastical or divine or whatever it is that people believe about them.
The fact that people have been consistently wrong about this doesn't mean that "unknown" and "supernatural" are synonyms as you continue to imply.
It just means people have been consistently wrong in attributing supernatural causes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 9:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 9:51 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 432 (657527)
03-29-2012 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Straggler
03-29-2012 9:46 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
In which case we have never studied something that really is "supernatural".
The issue is "If there really was something that was supernatural, how could we study it?"
Remember, the given is that the thing really is supernatural and so our natural based tests would be ineffective.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 9:46 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:07 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 113 of 432 (657530)
03-29-2012 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
03-29-2012 9:51 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:
In which case we have never studied something that really is "supernatural".
Yet there are lots of things which are still unknown. So "unknown" and "supernatural" cannot mean the same thing can they?
jar writes:
In which case we have never studied something that really is "supernatural".
Most of the things once thought to be supernatural have been found not to be. Furthermore to the best of our scientific knowledge the whole idea of the the supernatural is a human construction.
jar writes:
The issue is "If there really was something that was supernatural, how could we study it?"
The same way we study anything else. Scientifically. The fact that science wouldn't be able to explain it doesn't mean it couldn't be investigated using the scientific method to see if is real rather than a trick (for example) does it?
jar writes:
Remember, the given is that the thing really is supernatural and so our natural based tests would be ineffective.
But what is it that you thinks means that tests and investigations cannot be undertaken?
If magical Leprechauns actually existed we could scientifically test them couldn't we? Their magical abilities (teleportation, wish granting, etc. etc.) if genuinely supernatural would defy natural explanation and scientific understanding but that wouldn't stop us undertaking scientific investigations on these entities and their abilities would it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 9:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 10:15 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 114 of 432 (657532)
03-29-2012 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:07 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Again, what we can test is only the natural unless you can show me a method of testing the supernatural.
You can test the magical Leprechauns but I can see only two possible answers; "no, what is observed is natural" or "What is observed is unexplained".
I do not see and so far no one has presented any test where the conclusion might be "Yes, that is supernatural."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:07 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:28 AM jar has replied
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 03-29-2012 10:58 AM jar has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 115 of 432 (657533)
03-29-2012 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by jar
03-29-2012 9:29 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:
There was no answer, just word salad.
Your response is too funny.
No, really too funny.
Really, really, really funny.
Actually, no - it's bollocks.
jar writes:
If you are saying that the way something is identified as supernatural is by someone claiming it is supernatural, then that is so open that it is meaningless, useless and worthless.
I was not saying anything about the way something is identified as supernatural.
I was describing how we could study the supernatural.
Forgotten what you asked?
Is your memory going?
Forgotten what you asked?
Is your memory going?

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 9:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 10:29 AM Panda has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 116 of 432 (657535)
03-29-2012 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
03-29-2012 10:15 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:
Again, what we can test is only the natural unless you can show me a method of testing the supernatural.
We can scientifically investigate anything which is real and detectable can't we?
jar writes:
You can test the magical Leprechauns but I can see only two possible answers; "no, what is observed is natural" or "What is observed is unexplained".
But that in itself doesn't stop us investigating magical leprechauns does it? Do you now accept that, if it exists and is detectable, then it can be scientifically investigated whether supernatural or not?
jar writes:
I do not see and so far no one has presented any test where the conclusion might be "Yes, that is supernatural."
Concluding and investigating are not the same thing.
Do you think "unknown" and "supernatural" are synonyms?
If not what do you think the difference is between these two terms?
If yes - How can there be things which are unknown but not supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 10:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 10:33 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 119 by 1.61803, posted 03-29-2012 10:37 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 117 of 432 (657537)
03-29-2012 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Panda
03-29-2012 10:16 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
But you still offer no information.
You can study something that someone claims is "supernatural" and it is possible that you might determine based on those tests that it is not "supernatural", you might even end up determining that you cannot explain the subject, but what tests would show that it really was supernatural?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Panda, posted 03-29-2012 10:16 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Panda, posted 03-29-2012 10:49 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 432 (657539)
03-29-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:28 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Unknown and Supernatural are not synonyms.
Unknown is very broad and includes everything we cannot explain.
Supernatural though is a subset of unknown, things where the actual cause are not natural.
We can test things and determine that they have a natural cause, that they have an unknown clause, but I can see no way we could test something and determine that it has a supernatural cause.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:41 AM jar has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 119 of 432 (657540)
03-29-2012 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:28 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
then it can be scientifically investigated whether supernatural or not?
Sure, except the whole idea of supernatural is that it does not adhere to the laws of physics and scientific inquiry does.
Supernatural by definition is that which is beyond the natural world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:45 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 120 of 432 (657541)
03-29-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Percy
03-29-2012 8:36 AM


Re: To PaulK
I see there are forty posts after this one, so the discussion might have moved on and this is no longer relevant, but anyway...
No, not really. Most of those posts are just jar and Panda pretending they're having a debate while they practice typing.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 03-29-2012 8:36 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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