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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 432 (657539)
03-29-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:28 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Unknown and Supernatural are not synonyms.
Unknown is very broad and includes everything we cannot explain.
Supernatural though is a subset of unknown, things where the actual cause are not natural.
We can test things and determine that they have a natural cause, that they have an unknown clause, but I can see no way we could test something and determine that it has a supernatural cause.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:41 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 432 (657543)
03-29-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:41 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
Right. Things like the hypothetical genuinely magical leprechauns we have been discussing. They would qualify as "supernatural" because they are genuinely magical and thus not limited to natural causes.
I would say no.
But do you accept that simply being supernatural doesn't preclude something from being investigated by applying the scientific method?
No, I can see no way that the scientific method could investigate the supernatural by definition.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:49 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 432 (657549)
03-29-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Straggler
03-29-2012 10:49 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
The definition of supernatural is something that is not natural and caused by a being that is not natural.
I can see no way of testing that can determine if something is magical.
We can determine that something is NOT magical, but how can we test to see if it IS magical?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 10:49 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 11:00 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 432 (657556)
03-29-2012 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Taq
03-29-2012 10:58 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
But how can one observe or identify or see or test "supernatural"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 03-29-2012 10:58 AM Taq has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 432 (657558)
03-29-2012 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Straggler
03-29-2012 11:00 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
HUH?
How do we know they are magical, any different than Carnac the Magnificent?
We can test to see if they are natural, but what test shows they are supernatural?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 11:00 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 11:26 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 432 (657574)
03-29-2012 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Straggler
03-29-2012 11:26 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
I see no way to even identify a "genuinely magical Leprechaun" for study.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 11:26 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 432 (657578)
03-29-2012 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:00 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
LOL
Sorry but that makes no sense, how do you study a genuinely magical leprechaun when you cannot even identify a genuinely magical leprechaun?
And the scientific method involves natural things. It can be used to study something claimed to be supernatural but how can it study something that IS supernatural?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:00 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:09 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 146 of 432 (657580)
03-29-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:09 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
We can investigate it and determine if it is explainable or unexplainable.
If explainable then we can say that it is natural.
But if it is not explainable then we can not say that it is supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 432 (657583)
03-29-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:25 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
All of it is quite frankly, worthless when it comes to investigating the supernatural.
You can investigate something that is claimed to be supernatural but you can never know whether or not your are investigating the supernatural unless you can show me some way to distinguish between just unknown and supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 151 of 432 (657586)
03-29-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:41 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
No, I do not accept that it is possible to scientifically investigate the supernatural if the "the supernatural" in question is empirically detectable because there is no way that I can see to tell if what is being investigated i supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 432 (657590)
03-29-2012 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:54 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
No, we can investigate something claimed to be supernatural, and we can determine if it is not supernatural or if it is unexplainable but so far no one has shown anyway that we could tell if it was supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 2:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 432 (657603)
03-29-2012 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Perdition
03-29-2012 2:05 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
We can study what we can sense and test, but I cannot imagine any test that would show that something was supernatural.
The best we could do is to determine that whatever it is could be explained naturally, or that it cannot yet be explained, but neither of those tell us whether or not what we are observing IS supernatural.
Consider "Loki" or "Coyote", both tricksters. They could be supernatural yet still influence the results of any test to show that they were NOT supernatural.
I imagine almost everyone here knows that I happen to believe, and believe strongly, that there is Supernatural, but I do not try to show that is true because I realize that even if true, I can not imagine any possible way to test or demonstrate that belief.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 2:05 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by rueh, posted 03-29-2012 3:08 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 159 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:21 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 162 of 432 (657615)
03-29-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Perdition
03-29-2012 3:21 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Correct kinda.
It has no bearing on whether the entity or incident or effect is supernatural or not.
The problem is when in our ignorance we claim to have studied the supernatural.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:21 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 432 (657623)
03-29-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Straggler
03-29-2012 3:47 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Yes, I know that you have made that claim, and I think it is just nonsense.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:47 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 4:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 171 of 432 (657627)
03-29-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Perdition
03-29-2012 3:53 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
And as I pointed out, I can see no way to detect whether something is supernatural or not.
If someone could point to some test that shows something is supernatural then I would certainly reconsider my position.
If someone could even show that they studied the supernatural then I would reconsider my position.
But again, being undetectable tells us nothing about whether or not something exists. Examples I've used in the past (and they are simply made up examples but we seem to have lots of that from others so I may get to play too) would be GOD influencing a doctor to explore one more option when diagnosing a patient, or GOD planting an inspiration that leads a person to some new insight or discovery. Neither would seem different or even unusual and all tests and examination we could do would fail to show supernatural intervention, yet the results would stand.
Personally the position I hold is that it's silly to ever go beyond a personal expression that someone thinks something is miraculous or supernatural.
To claim that science studies supernatural is pretty pointless and in ever case mentioned so far we could restate the example without invoking supernatural.
We can say that we test Buddhist Monks that levitate.
We can say we tested a little man wearing green that claimed to grant wishes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:53 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 4:21 PM jar has replied

  
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