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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(6)
Message 58 of 432 (657381)
03-27-2012 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by bridgebuilder
03-27-2012 5:28 PM


Agnostic
The only compromise is perhaps science should become a little agnostic.
In what way could science be MORE agnostic than it already is.
Science currently makes absolutely no statements or predictions about religion or the supernatural beings that religions present.
Science, in fact, completely ignores the supernatural because... it's supernatural.
The only time there is a conflict is when someone's religion tells them something which is factually incorrect.
Science doesn't care WHICH religion is wrong, it doesn't care about the implications of the incorrect statement.
Science just backs reality. Every time, all the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-27-2012 5:28 PM bridgebuilder has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-28-2012 4:37 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 73 of 432 (657458)
03-28-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by bridgebuilder
03-28-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Agnostic
Perhaps science backs reality, but perhaps not. What if science is stuck in a scenario similar to Plato's cave because it deliberately ignores the supernatural? Science will remain blissfully unaware I suppose.
In Plato's cave, the subject can only see the shadows on the wall. They can not evaluate what they are seeing. They can't "turn around" or "cast their own shadow" or "look at their own body".
In other words, they do not experiment. They do not try and disprove what they are seeing.
Science ignores the supernatural because the supernatural does not exist. If it existed, it wouldn't be "super"natural, it would just be "natural".
When you try and include the supernatural into explanations about what is happening or how it is happening, you quickly realize that the supernatural is worthless.
Examples: The wind blows because...
A) Different air pressures in different areas are trying to equalize.
B) Zeus wants it to
C) Ghosts want it to
D) Baby Jesus wants it to
E) Thor wants it to
F) An invisible dragon wants it to
G) Bigfoot wants it to
....
ZZ) An UNKNOWN magical creature or being wants it to
That list is LITERALLY endless and only A offers us anything we can test and later use to explain other things.
If you allow for A supernatural explanation, then you must allow for ALL supernatural explanations which means that no question can be answered ever.
Worthless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-28-2012 4:37 PM bridgebuilder has replied

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 Message 160 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-29-2012 3:24 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 155 of 432 (657597)
03-29-2012 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Straggler
03-29-2012 12:54 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So you agree that we can investigate something that may or may not be supernatural but if it is supernatural then it is impossible to investigate it.
It's a contradiction of terms that is causing the confusion.
If something is "supernatural" it doesn't exist, therefore science can not "investigate" it.
Science can run all sorts of experiments designed to not detect something which doesn't exist, but that's not really science.
If I hold up a pencil and claim it's a bleepbloop detector, then wave it around and proclaim that no bleepbloop was detected, did I do an "investigation"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

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 Message 161 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:26 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 164 of 432 (657617)
03-29-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by bridgebuilder
03-29-2012 3:24 PM


Re: Agnostic
In Plato's cave they are free to experiment, evaluate or whatever they want to do. But they are unknowingly experimenting on and evaluating shadows.
Nope.
"they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. "
The can only observe and even then, only from one angle.
No experiments whatsoever. They can't even observe themselves to determine if they are shadows.
If you want to use a literary reference, I suggest you at least familiarize yourself with it first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-29-2012 3:24 PM bridgebuilder has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 165 of 432 (657618)
03-29-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Straggler
03-29-2012 3:26 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So you think "supernatural" is a synonym of "nonexistent" then?
If not what do you see as the key difference between the two terms?
I prefer to say it's an antonym of "natural".
Natural meaning existing within reality.
"Super"natural existing outside of reality.
It's possible that someone THINKS that something is supernatural but later it is revealed that it isn't
Example: Lightning.
However, when the thing which is being considered is a lifeform which predates reality, it's pretty safe to assume that the thing which exists outside of reality is not a part of the set "reality".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 4:05 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 166 of 432 (657619)
03-29-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Straggler
03-29-2012 3:47 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Knowing that something is supernatural is irrelevant as to whether that thing can be studied scientifically or not.
If it exists and is detectable it can be scientifically studied.
It really is that simple.
Right, IF it exists. If the thing is supernatural, then it doesn't actually exist and therefore can not be studied

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 183 of 432 (657657)
03-29-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Straggler
03-29-2012 4:05 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Nuggin writes:
"Super"natural existing outside of reality.
By whose definition?
Dictionary.com for one.
supernatural  
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
Is it conceivably possible that someone thinks something is supernatural and that it actually is?
Of course, but that thing wouldn't actually exist.
For example, it's possible that my pet invisible dragon who farts unicorn is supernatural.
He just isn't _real_.
if a being exactly matching that concept we call Thor actually exists (along with his magic hammer etc.) then I think it would be somewhat disingenuous to insist that there is nothing supernatural in existence.
You are contradicting yourself.
If a being exactly matching Thor "actually exists" then he is not supernatural by definition because... he _actually exists_.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 4:05 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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