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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 166 of 432 (657619)
03-29-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Straggler
03-29-2012 3:47 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Knowing that something is supernatural is irrelevant as to whether that thing can be studied scientifically or not.
If it exists and is detectable it can be scientifically studied.
It really is that simple.
Right, IF it exists. If the thing is supernatural, then it doesn't actually exist and therefore can not be studied

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:47 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 167 of 432 (657620)
03-29-2012 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
03-29-2012 3:46 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
The problem is when in our ********* we claim to have studied the supernatural.
You're right. No one could say with certainty that they (or we or anyone) has studied the supernatural. Though they could say that they have studied something and come to the personal opinion that it is supernatural.
But this is beside the point. All that was stated is that the supernatural, if it exists, can be studied, unless the supernatural cannot be detected in any way, which is pretty much the same as being nonexistent as far as we are concerned. No one said anything about knowing or claiming or concluding that something was supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 3:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:11 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 168 of 432 (657622)
03-29-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by bridgebuilder
03-29-2012 3:24 PM


Re: Agnostic
You still have not answered why you want science to study the supernatural, even assuming it exists.
Science is the study of the natural world, why would you want the study of the natural world to study something that's supernatural (i.e. not of the natural world)?
Edited by Perdition, : cut off my reply.

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 Message 160 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-29-2012 3:24 PM bridgebuilder has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 432 (657623)
03-29-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Straggler
03-29-2012 3:47 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Yes, I know that you have made that claim, and I think it is just nonsense.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 3:47 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 4:12 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 170 of 432 (657625)
03-29-2012 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Nuggin
03-29-2012 3:50 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Nuggin writes:
"Super"natural existing outside of reality.
By whose definition?
Nug writes:
It's possible that someone THINKS that something is supernatural but later it is revealed that it isn't
Is it conceivably possible that someone thinks something is supernatural and that it actually is?
Nug writes:
Example: Lightning.
Lightning is observable and natural by any common modern understanding. But Thor remains supernatural as a concept doesn't he?
And if a being exactly matching that concept we call Thor actually exists (along with his magic hammer etc.) then I think it would be somewhat disingenuous to insist that there is nothing supernatural in existence.
I doubt I believe in the actual existence of the supernatural any more than you do. But if an omnipotent, omniscient being who watches over us all, judges our souls and who sparked the universe into creation does actually exist then to say that this isn't supernatural by definition seems to be an exercise in definitional disingenuity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Nuggin, posted 03-29-2012 3:50 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Nuggin, posted 03-29-2012 6:19 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 171 of 432 (657627)
03-29-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Perdition
03-29-2012 3:53 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
And as I pointed out, I can see no way to detect whether something is supernatural or not.
If someone could point to some test that shows something is supernatural then I would certainly reconsider my position.
If someone could even show that they studied the supernatural then I would reconsider my position.
But again, being undetectable tells us nothing about whether or not something exists. Examples I've used in the past (and they are simply made up examples but we seem to have lots of that from others so I may get to play too) would be GOD influencing a doctor to explore one more option when diagnosing a patient, or GOD planting an inspiration that leads a person to some new insight or discovery. Neither would seem different or even unusual and all tests and examination we could do would fail to show supernatural intervention, yet the results would stand.
Personally the position I hold is that it's silly to ever go beyond a personal expression that someone thinks something is miraculous or supernatural.
To claim that science studies supernatural is pretty pointless and in ever case mentioned so far we could restate the example without invoking supernatural.
We can say that we test Buddhist Monks that levitate.
We can say we tested a little man wearing green that claimed to grant wishes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 3:53 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 4:21 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 172 of 432 (657628)
03-29-2012 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
03-29-2012 4:00 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So - Just to be clear - Can we study an event or entity if we are ignorant when beginning that study as to whether it is supernatural or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:15 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 432 (657630)
03-29-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Straggler
03-29-2012 4:12 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Again that is just a nonsense question.
We can investigate an event or entity but can never investigate any supernatural aspect of the event.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 4:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 03-29-2012 7:01 PM jar has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 174 of 432 (657631)
03-29-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
03-29-2012 4:11 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
And as I pointed out, I can see no way to detect whether something is supernatural or not.
You're right. No one has said differently.
But again, being undetectable tells us nothing about whether or not something exists.
I never said it did. I said if it is undetectable, then it is no different from being non-existent as far as we are concerned.
Examples I've used in the past (and they are simply made up examples but we seem to have lots of that from others so I may get to play too) would be GOD influencing a doctor to explore one more option when diagnosing a patient, or GOD planting an inspiration that leads a person to some new insight or discovery.
But the brain of the doctor or the person being inspired has to detect the influence, or there has been no influence. We may never recognize the influence, but if it is not detected by the brain or somewhere, then nothing has been changed.
To claim that science studies supernatural is pretty pointless and in ever case mentioned so far we could restate the example without invoking supernatural.
You seem to be missing entirely the point Straggler and now I have been making.
We're not saying anyone can prove the supernatural. We're not saying science could ever conclude supernatural. What we're saying is:
quote:
Premise 1: Supernatural things exist and can be detected.
Premise 2: Anything that can be detected can be studied.
Conclusion: If supernatural things exist and can be detected, they can be studied.
NOTE: No where in there does it say that anyone knows the thing being studied is supernatural. No where does it say anyone concludes that it is supernatural. No where does it say that the word supernatural is ever uttered by anyone involved in the investigation.
If something can influence the natural world, we can point ot that influence, describe it, measure its length or height or duration, and write down those measurements. That is studying, even if we never figure out what it was. This includes both natural and supernatural events, beings or items.
If they can't influence the natural world, then they may as well not exist for al we're concerned, because, being natural, they will never influence us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:31 PM Perdition has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 175 of 432 (657635)
03-29-2012 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Perdition
03-29-2012 4:21 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Again, no where in that are you studying the supernatural, you are simply studying the natural world result.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 4:21 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 4:53 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 432 (657637)
03-29-2012 4:35 PM


James Randi
The idea that science ignores studying the paranormal is daft. Science has looked for it over and over and found nothing except delusion and fraud.
It's got to the extent that people like James Randi is offering $1m dollars for anyone that thinks they have something paranormal but has never found anything at all. If it's there making it's presence in the world science can study it. If it's not it can't.

The James Randi Education Foundation
The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.
At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 177 of 432 (657639)
03-29-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
03-29-2012 4:31 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Again, no where in that are you studying the supernatural, you are simply studying the natural world result.
If you put a supernatural leprechaun on a scale and measure its weight, you're studying an aspect of something supernatural.
Just like if you picked up a dog and put it on the scale, you're studying the dog, even though you're only studying a single attribute of it.
Besides, you could study a supernatural aspect of the leprechaun. Its supernatural power is making gold coins appear out of thin air. What's to stop the researcher from taking notes like these:
12:15:37 PM - Subject's palm is empty.
12:15:38 PM - Subject's palm contains 5 gold coins.
Method of retrieval: unknown.
1:45:16 PM - Subject's palm is empty.
1:45:17 PM - Subject's palm contains 2 gold coins.
Method of retrieval: unknown.
Conclusions: Subject is not limited to a single number of coins. Subject is not limited to only an odd number of coins.
Subject is not limited to a single point suring the day.
Further questions: Is subject limited to a single size of coin?
Is subject limited to only prime numbered amounts of coins?
Must coins remain in contact with subject?
How long do coins last?
6:45:06 PM - Coins still exist, removed from subject
Conclusions: Coins do not need to remain in contact with subject.
Coins last at least 6 hours without contact with subject.
These are all observations about something that has happened supernaturally. Again, the researcher is probably not assuming the action was supernatural, but this is irrelevant to the fact that it was supernatural. It won't determine how the coins appeared, but it is studying the appearance of the coins nonetheless, and the appearance was supernatural in origin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:55 PM Perdition has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 432 (657640)
03-29-2012 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Perdition
03-29-2012 4:53 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
How do you know that it is "a supernatural leprechaun"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 4:53 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 5:01 PM jar has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 179 of 432 (657643)
03-29-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
03-29-2012 4:55 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
How do you know that it is "a supernatural leprechaun"?
I never said I did. I simply stated that it is, for the basis of the example. As we've said, our knowledge of whether it is supernatural or not has no bearing on whether it is, in fact, supernatural.
Also, whether we know that it is supernatural or not has no bearing on whether we can study it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 4:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 03-29-2012 5:10 PM Perdition has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 180 of 432 (657644)
03-29-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Perdition
03-29-2012 5:01 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
So then how are you studying the supernatural?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 5:01 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Perdition, posted 03-29-2012 5:15 PM jar has replied

  
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