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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Portillo Member (Idle past 4189 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
Piltdown man - In 1912, Charles Dawson went to the Piltdown mines and uncovered a transitional fossil between apes and humans. After 40 years, Piltdown man was discovered to be a hoax. Somebody had filed down an orangutan jaw and human skull and buried it in a gravel pit.
Nebraska man - In 1922, a tooth was found that was 1 million years old and combined the characteristics of a chimpanzee and man. Later they found the full skeleton and Nebraska man was an extinct pig.
Java man - Java man was built on a skullcap and teeth now known to have belonged to an orangutan or gibbon.
Leakey footprints - Footprints were discovered in ash layers that were dated to 3.5 million years ago, around the time apes started walking erect. A scientist by the name of Russell Tuttle later began studying tribal people that walk around their whole lives barefoot. And observed that the arch in their foot completely disappears, are completely flatfooted and leave tracks identical to the footprints in the ash.
Neanderthal man - Neanderthal is sometimes portrayed as an ignorant, primitive. knuckledragging apeman. But research shows that neanderthal was highly intelligent and superior. Their cranium was 13% bigger than humans. They made advanced instruments and technology. Makeup has been found, proving that neanderthal women were fashionable. A scientist discovered that some neanderthals were 200 years old.
Orce man - Found in 1982, Orce man was supposedly a 17 year old male who lived 1.6 million years ago. Later it was discovered to be the fossil of a donkey not a human. And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Piltdown man
Was suspected of being a hoax almost from the start and the "finders" of the skull soon stopped exhibiting it. Proven to be a hoax by SCIENCE.
Nebraska man
Named by a newspaper writer, not by scientists. Also these two were dealt with by RAZD in the first post.
Java man was built on a skullcap and teeth now known to have belonged to an orangutan or gibbon
Care to substantiate this claim.
They made advanced instruments and technology.
Care to substantiate this claim.
A scientist discovered that some neanderthals were 200 years old
Care to substantiate this claim? Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given. Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177 It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in mindssoon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Actually, I think we can learn a lot about ourselves and how science works from Piltdown Man. The Skeptic Dictionary has a nice article on it:
Piltdown hoax Piltdown was an archaeological site in England where in 1908 and 1912 human, ape and other mammal fossils were found together. In 1913 at a nearby site was found an ape's jaw with a canine tooth worn down like a human's. The general community of British paleoanthropologists came to accept the idea that the fossil remains belonged to a single creature that had had a human cranium and an ape's jaw. In 1953, Piltdown 'man' was exposed as a forgery. The skull was modern and the teeth on the ape's jaw had been filed down. To those who are skeptical of science, such as Charles Fort and the Forteans, such episodes as Piltdown are taken to be proof that science is, more or less, bunk. To those who have a better understanding of the nature and limits of science, Piltdown is little more than a wrong turn down a series of roads which, despite such detours, eventually arrives at the right destination. How had so many scientists been duped? Stephen Jay Gould offers several reasons, among them wishful thinking and cultural bias. The latter, no doubt, played a role in the lack of critical thinking among British paleoanthropologists. But, above all, the Piltdown forgery demonstrates the fallibility of scientific knowledge. It demonstrates, too, the way theories and facts are related in science. Theories are the filters through which facts are interpreted (Popper). Theories try to explain and make sense of facts. On the other hand, facts are used to test theories. Gould notes that today a human cranium with an ape's jaw is considered to be extremely implausible and far-fetched. But in the early part of this century, anthropologists were imbued with the cultural prejudice which considered man's big brain as his ticket to rule, the main evolutionary feature that made it possible for man to develop all his other unique features. Since there was a pre-conceived notion that man's brain must have developed to its human size before other changes occurred in human structure, a human cranium with an ape's jaw didn't arouse as much suspicion as it would today. Fossil discoveries since Piltdown clearly show a progression from small-brained but upright, hence non-simian hominids, to larger-brained upright humans. Scientists "modeled the facts" and confirmed their theory, "another illustration," says Gould, "that information always reaches us through the strong filters of culture, hope, and expectation" (Gould 1982, p. 118). Once committed to a theory, we see what fits with the theory. The main reason Piltdown was not spotted as a fraud much earlier was that scientists weren't allowed to see the evidence, which was kept securely locked in the British Museum. Instead of focusing their attention on examining the "facts" more closely with an eye to discovering the fraud, scientists weren't even allowed to examine the physical evidence at all! They had to deal with plaster molds and be satisfied with a quick look at the originals to justify the claim that the models were accurate. Another reason some scientists were duped was probably because it was not in their nature to consider someone would be so malicious as to intentionally engage in such deception. In any case, one of the main fallouts of Piltdown has been a virtual industry of detectives trying to identify the hoaxer. The list of suspects includes: Charles Dawson, an amateur archaeologist who brought in the first cranial fragments from Piltdown; Tielhard de Chardin, theologian and scientist who accompanied Dawson and Arthur Smith Woodward (Keeper of Geology at the British Museum [Natural History] in 1912) to Piltdown on expeditions where they discovered the mandible; W. J. Sollas, a professor of geology at Oxford; Grafton Elliot Smith, who wrote a paper on the find in 1913; Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes; and Martin A. C. Hinton, a curator of zoology at the time of the Piltdown hoax. A trunk with Hinton's initials on it was found in an attic of London's Natural History Museum. The trunk contained bones stained and carved in the same way as the Piltdown fossils. The evidence in each case is circumstantial and not very strong. What is highly probable is that there will be more books speculating on the identity of the Piltdown hoaxer. the moral of Piltdown The moral of Piltdown is that science is a fallible, human activity which does not always take the most direct route in fulfilling its aim of understanding nature. When an anomaly such as the discovery of a human cranium with an ape's jaw occurs one must either fit it into a new theory, re-examine the evidence for error in discovery or interpretation, or show that the so-called anomaly is not really an anomaly at all but in fact fits with current theory. Which route a scientist takes may be guided more by personal hopes and cultural prejudices than by some mythical objectivity characterized by the collection and accumulation of colorless, impersonal facts to be pigeonholed dogmatically into a General Theory of Objective Truth and Knowledge. But to characterize scientists as arrogant buffoons making claims that often turn out to be false, and to make a caricature out of science because it is not infallible and does not arrive at absolutely certain claims, belies a grave misunderstanding of the nature of science. The buffoons are those who demand absolute certainty where none can be had; the buffoons are those who do not understand the value and beauty of probabilities in science. The arrogant ones are those who think that science is mere speculation because scientists make errors, even egregious errors, or at times even commit fraud to push their prejudices. The arrogant ones are those who can't tell the difference between a testable and an untestable hypothesis and who think one speculation is as good as another. The buffoons are those who think that since both scientists and creationists or other pseudoscientists pose theories, each is doing essentially the same thing. However, all theories are not empirical, and of those that are empirical not all are equally speculative. Furthermore, those creationists who think that Piltdown demonstrates that scientists can't accurately date bones should remember that methods of dating such things have greatly improved since 1910.* Because of the public nature of science and the universal application of its methods, and because of the fact that the majority of scientists are not crusaders for their own untested or untestable prejudices, as many pseudoscientists are, whatever errors are made by scientists are likely to be discovered by other scientists. The discovery will be enough to get science back on track. The same can't be said for the history of quacks and pseudoscientists where errors do not get detected because their claims are not tested properly. And when critics identify errors, they are ignored by true believers. (note: Yet another book on the Piltdown hoax has been published since the Hinton trunk discovery. Unraveling Piltdown: The Science Fraud of the Century and Its Solution by John Evangelist Walsh (Random House, 1996) points the finger at Dawson once again.) See also Aztec UFO hoax, Blondlot, Cardiff Giant, Carlos hoax, Cottingly fairy hoax, Arthur Ford hoax, Forteans, Ica stones, Mary Toft hoax, orgone energy, pathological science, Piltdown hoax, Pufedorf hoax, Steve Terbot, hoax, and the Sokal hoax. reader comments further reading books and articles Anderson, Robert B. "The Case of the Missing Link," Pacific Discovery (Spring 1996). Feder, Kenneth L. "Piltdown, Paradigms, and the Paranormal." Skeptical Inquirer 14.4 (1990) 397-402. Gee, Henry. "Box of Bones 'Clinches' Identity of Piltdown Paleontology Hoaxer," Nature (May 23, 1996). Gould, Stephen Jay. "Evolution as Fact and Theory," in Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1983). Gould, Stephen Jay. "Piltdown Revisited," in The Panda's Thumb, (New York: W.W Norton and Company, 1982). Johanson, Donald C. and Maitland A. Edey. Lucy, the beginnings of humankind (New York : Simon and Schuster, 1981). Popper, Karl R. The Logic of Scientific Discovery (New York: Harper Torchbooks, 1959). websites The Perpetrator at Piltdown by John Hathaway Winslow and Alfred Meyer Richard Harter's Piltdown Man Page Focuses mainly on who might have perpetrated the hoax. A Mostly Complete Piltdown Man Bibliography by Tom Turrittin Piltdown Man - The Bogus Bones Caper by Richard Harter Piltdown: the man who never was by Lee Krystek The Piltdown Plot The Debunking of Three Hoaxes by James Opie The Piltdown Forgery by Shireen Gonzaga
Piltdown hoax - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.comLife, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Panda Member (Idle past 3741 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Portillo writes:
No, it wasn't later discovered to be a donkey. Orce man - Found in 1982, Orce man was supposedly a 17 year old male who lived 1.6 million years ago. Later it was discovered to be the fossil of a donkey not a human. Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hi Portillo,
The goal of this thread is not to prove that scientists are morally superior to creationists and therefore do not engage in frauds and hoaxes. Scientists are still human, after all, vulnerable to all the ills that flesh is heir and all that. Nor do scientists possess any special qualities that render them immune to being fooled by frauds and hoaxes, at least those that possess the required technical sophistication. The true purpose of this thread is to clearly illustrate that science possesses intellectual honesty and creationism does not. The various frauds and hoaxes that you list are all acknowledged by science, with the exception of those that are actually creationist misrepresentations. You can actually help this thread makes its point by denying that the creationist misrepresentations are just that. That by itself is insufficient, but then we will provide you correct information backed by evidence and references, and you'll still deny they are misrepresentations, and the thread's point will have been made. --Percy
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Portillo writes: Geologists determined the age of the rocks these footprints were found in. Those rocks have an age of around 3.6 million years. Way more than 10 000 years old. Leakey footprints - Footprints were discovered in ash layers that were dated to 3.5 million years ago,.Portillo writes: Actually, no. Bipedal specializations are found in Australopithecus fossils from 4.2-3.9 million years ago. The footprints you are referring to date from around 3.6 million years old, found in the same strata as a. afarensis fossils. around the time apes started walking erect.Portillo writes: You mean the same scientist who studied these footprints and determined that these a. afarensis creatures, who left these prints, walked bipedally in a fashion almost identical to human beings? That one? A scientist by the name of Russell Tuttle.Portillo writes: The same one that determined that the creatures (a. afarensis) leaving these prints walked bipedally in a fashion almost identical to human beings from studdying those prints? .later began studying tribal people that walk around their whole lives barefoot. And observed that the arch in their foot completely disappears, are completely flatfooted and leave tracks identical to the footprints in the ash. Source for some of the information: Laetoli Footprint Trails | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program Sorry, I can’t see where any fraud or hoaxes are involved in this. Could you please highlight where you think fraud or hoaxes were committed? Edited by Pressie, : Added the word hoaxes Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : Added source Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Portillo,
Piltdown man Nebraska man See Message 1 Java man - Java man was built on a skullcap and teeth now known to have belonged to an orangutan or gibbon. Orce man - Found in 1982, Orce man was supposedly a 17 year old male who lived 1.6 million years ago. Later it was discovered to be the fossil of a donkey not a human. It appears you are quoting a creationist hoax\fraud here -- source please. These have also been discussed before on this website: see EVOLUTION'S FRAUD HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ITS PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE: and note that it is the thread that inspired this one.
Leakey footprints - Footprints were discovered in ash layers that were dated to 3.5 million years ago, around the time apes started walking erect. A scientist by the name of Russell Tuttle later began studying tribal people that walk around their whole lives barefoot. And observed that the arch in their foot completely disappears, are completely flatfooted and leave tracks identical to the footprints in the ash. There is more to the matching of footprints to australopiticines than a flat arch. The shape of the foot, and in particular the splayed first toe also match the bone structure of australopithicines. Please note that you not only need to show false information be promoted by a scientist (or group of), you need to show that there is intent to deceive:
quote: Posting a falsehood on a website and claiming that it is true meets this criteria, especially if it has been pointed out to be false. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1053 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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Java man - Java man was built on a skullcap and teeth now known to have belonged to an orangutan or gibbon. Just to clarify RAZD's response, this one is simply untrue. I can find claims by scientists that the thigh bone originally attributed to Java Man (which was found along with the skullcap and teeth) does not belong with the others and is actually the thigh bone of an anatomically modern human; but no-one seems to be classifying theskullcap and teeth fossils as anything but Homo erectus. Encyclopoedia Britannica says: quote:
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ScottyDouglas Member (Idle past 4360 days) Posts: 79 Joined:
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I do not know whats worse a mans belief that he can actually date billions of years,(BTW)if you can date back you could forward as well.Why arent we traveling in the future yet.Or if he thinks any of that crap changes his life any.Or that men-people think they are mutants.Thats what science has broke us down to we are brothers and sisters to every species on earth and not only that but we are not even human being we are mutant human beings.I mean actually a human would be a species originally on this planet but we are not we mutated from our original parent.
Also when the evidence gets out that they have giants bones over 10 to 30 feet tall from the past then that will hurt evoultion.No explanation for it, why its hidden.Then if we last another couple hundred years and see we still arent evolving and neither are other species then it will start putting doubts.Thier are many lies.But you actually think someone will find refutable evidence unless by dumb luck or hardcore research then your right.You love to debate it.No because you like smash creationist but because you want someone to.Cause inside you know it but you cant prove it.thats the reason for this thread.Welcome to 6000years.org | Amazing Bible Discoveries | Proof the Bible is True Giant Humans and Dinosaurs Unexplained Mysteries - Giant Bones: A Big Deal, or Merely Tall Tales? My Blog is under construction Edited by ScottyDouglas, : No reason given. Edited by ScottyDouglas, : No reason given.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I do not know whats worse a mans belief that he can actually date billions of years,(BTW)if you can date back you could forward as well.Why arent we traveling in the future yet Ummm..... Because time travel has nothing to do with dating.
Or if he thinks any of that crap changes his life any.Or that men-people think they are mutants.Thats what science has broke us down to we are brothers and sisters to every species on earth and not only that but we are not even human being we are mutant human beings.I mean actually a human would be a species originally on this planet but we are not we mutated from our original parent. Care to clarify this part of your rant? It really doesn't make sense to me.
Also when the evidence gets out that they have giants bones over 10 to 30 feet tall from the past then that will hurt evoultion.No explanation for it, why its hidden Care to provide some evidence, or is this a Roswell type conspiricy theory with no real basis in fact?
Then if we last another couple hundred years and see we still arent evolving and neither are other species then it will start putting doubts Evolution doesn't move at the fast pace your book of myths does.
No because you like smash creationist but because you want someone to.Cause inside you know it but you cant prove it.thats the reason for this thread. I find most creationist need no help being smashed, they are doing a fine job on their own. Welcome to EvC"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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ScottyDouglas Member (Idle past 4360 days) Posts: 79 Joined: |
Interestingly I dont care about your thoughts are comments.Im here to prove nothing.I do not have to.That your topic-prove it or not!Mine isnt.Everything i said was true.I do not care if you believe it or not it is not my job to do your research.Do it on your own.
Also I do not think I replied on your comment, so what wass your point?I was commenting on the original topic what you did not post! Forbidden Archeology: Human Giants Then And NowThe ape-ancestry myth (2) Giants in Ohio: The Hidden History of the Human Race! – The Gunfighter's Guide: Edited by ScottyDouglas, : No reason given. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
If your not up to the job of reasonable debate then your time hear is short. I suggest you crawl back under your bridge.
This is an open discussion and any body can challenge what you say. I was hoping you could support your position, I am apparently sadly wrong."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
Nice fast edit job..., It is not my job to do the reasearch to support your claims, the burden of proof is on you.
"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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ScottyDouglas Member (Idle past 4360 days) Posts: 79 Joined: |
I posted it before i got your reply and because you replied i added more and ill more again.
http://medialanephotography.co.uk/ea-giant-human-skeleton/ www.stevequayle.com Skeletons Of Giants Are Still Being Discovered Today http://forum.davidicke.com/archive/index.php/t-90106.html Edited by ScottyDouglas, : No reason given.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
Post and edits have time stamps....
BTW it is against forum rule to post bare links, you need to at least say a Little something about your link, also notice this edit has a later time then my original post. ABE... I guess I could have missed your edits, sorry. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : spelling Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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