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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 106 of 255 (624791)
07-20-2011 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Woodsy
12-30-2010 8:37 AM


Re: bottom line
How do you tweak the prophecy of crucifixion or the prophecy of Jews rejecting Jesus and Gentiles accepting Jesus, which is exactly what happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Woodsy, posted 12-30-2010 8:37 AM Woodsy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by AdminPD, posted 07-20-2011 6:32 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 109 by IamJoseph, posted 07-20-2011 6:52 AM Portillo has responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 107 of 255 (624813)
07-20-2011 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Portillo
07-20-2011 2:54 AM


Move the Debate Forward
If you're going to pull up an old topic at least provide a position concerning the topic that people can respond to.

You followed a poor post with a poor post.

Debate forum, not 20 questions.

Move the debate forward.

Thanks
AdminPD


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Portillo, posted 07-20-2011 2:54 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1926 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 108 of 255 (624818)
07-20-2011 6:42 AM


I know of not a single item in the Gospels or the quran which have been accepted by the world's institutions as vindicated. But I would welcome any premise, concept or law from those scriptures which are correct, good or accepted by any world institutions other than their own, marking the difference between rituals and laws.

The only prophesy which can be said to be vindicated the last 3000 years I know of is an ancient declaration made in writing that Israel will return. Also, the premise of NOT A BRICK SHALL STAND has been clearly disproven: there are 1000's of bricks in the western wall today. I hope this is niot seen as a negative factor - after all, belief and religion are only means to test us, how we behave when we are given some play.

The greatest prophesy is when a time and date is included.


    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1926 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 109 of 255 (624819)
07-20-2011 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Portillo
07-20-2011 2:54 AM


Re: bottom line
quote:
How do you tweak the prophecy of crucifixion or the prophecy of Jews rejecting Jesus and Gentiles accepting Jesus, which is exactly what happened.


I don't see the Jews as rejecting Christianity - they merely remained as Jews, in keeping with their own beliefs, as is their right to do so. They have no negative inclusion in their writings about Christians or Muslims. In fact we can only say that Christianity and Islam rejected each other, and both attacked Jews and their beliefs - because these emerged at the same period and under the same doctrines of the same space-times they mention, but in total contradiction of each other. Both cannot be right; both cannot be divine revelation! At least one is fibbing.

Ask yourself if you were a Jew, undergoing numerous existential wars for your beliefs with a host of nations, for 2,000 years and 2,600 years before Christianity and Islam emerged, you would accept the Gospels and/or the quran, which puts a bullet hole in your core beliefs? I doubt it!


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 Message 106 by Portillo, posted 07-20-2011 2:54 AM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Portillo, posted 07-20-2011 7:36 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 110 of 255 (624831)
07-20-2011 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by IamJoseph
07-20-2011 6:52 AM


Re: bottom line
Well Jesus was a Jew and claimed to be the Messiah. Who the Jews are still waiting for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by IamJoseph, posted 07-20-2011 6:52 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 07-20-2011 9:08 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 111 of 255 (624838)
07-20-2011 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Portillo
07-20-2011 7:36 AM


Re: bottom line
And rightly so since Jesus does not meet any of the requirements to be a messiah.

But the thread is about whether there are any Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Portillo, posted 07-20-2011 7:36 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 5:05 PM jar has responded

  
Sid Williams
Junior Member (Idle past 2640 days)
Posts: 2
From: Granite City, Ilinois, USA
Joined: 03-29-2012


Message 113 of 255 (657688)
03-29-2012 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
11-29-2010 2:45 AM


Prophecy Fulfilled by Iesus
1) Beast and False Prophet (Papacy & Pope) into lake of fire; #1 & #2.
2) #1 - Revelation 19.20 -- Fall of Babylon on September 20, 1870.
Confirmed in all encyclopedias, under topic, "Italy."
Confirmed in "Dictionary of the Popes," Oxford Press.
Confirmed by Matthew Poole, 1680;
Matthew Henry, 1714;
Elliott, 1832;
B.W. Johnson, 1891;
Halley's Bible Handbook, 1945;
The Belleville News-Democrat (Illinois), a UP article, (2009) "This day in history," The Italians ran the Papacy (Beast) and Pope (False Prophet)
out of Rome on September 20, 1870.
3) #2 - Revelation 20.10. The period of 11 years (Magenta - June 4, 1859; and Battle of Rome, 1870; is being repeated, and reported by the secular press.
6.2 bill;ion financial settlements have been legislated on Catholic Churches since 1950. God is alive and kicking!

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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3894
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 114 of 255 (657694)
03-29-2012 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Sid Williams
03-29-2012 10:05 PM


Mess of a message
Is there a point buried somewhere in that mess?

If so, you need to make it a LOT clearer.

Adminnemooseus


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 Message 113 by Sid Williams, posted 03-29-2012 10:05 PM Sid Williams has not yet responded

    
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2629 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


(1)
Message 115 of 255 (657852)
03-31-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-28-2010 1:16 PM


Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
jar writes:

I certainly don't see support there for a suffering servant acting wisely, or being lifted up, or exalted, or being so disfigured that he was not recognizable as human.

So, unless someone can provide better support than ICDESIGN did I would have to say that this prophecy is not even about Jesus and if it was, it was not fulfilled.

Isaiah is a perplexing book to decipher because of the chiastic, poetic structure, and some of the symbolic meanings in are lost from the cultural setting because of it being in a different era and by the translation from the original language. Adding to the difficulty, Isaiah goes back and forth to the current circumstances, to near future events, to end times scenarios, often in the same chapters. Jewish and Christian scholars are still trying to decipher all of its meanings.

However, there is a consensus in Christianity that the 'suffering servant' was Jesus Christ. If Jesus was betrayed by one of his followers, humiliated by his captors, stripped, flogged with a cat 'o nine tails and had thorns driven into his scalp after being in the Garden of Gethsemane all night while sweating drops of blood from anguish, this torment would be very disfiguring and dehumanizing. It is 'wise' in that he did not yield to the temptation to not 'drink from the bitter cup' and avoid being crucified, thereby making the atoning sacrifice. 'Lifted up' meant being nailed to a cross and being lifted up. After Jesus was resurrected, he became exalted. So according to Christianity, it was fulfilled.

If you have been given that same answer a dozen times already, my apologies. I haven't read the entire thread yet.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : typos


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 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-28-2010 1:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 11:38 AM bridgebuilder has responded
 Message 131 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-31-2012 6:10 PM bridgebuilder has responded
 Message 143 by ramoss, posted 04-16-2012 11:34 AM bridgebuilder has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 116 of 255 (657853)
03-31-2012 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 11:25 AM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
Sorry but those all seem to be simply quote mining, misrepresentation and taking pieces parts out of context. As a Christian, I'm aware that is how many chapters of Club Christian use or as I believe misuse Isaiah. It is certainly not how Isaiah would have interpreted it.

In the OP I included all of Isaiah 52 and not just the part so many Christians seem to quote mine.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 11:25 AM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 11:48 AM jar has responded

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2629 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 117 of 255 (657854)
03-31-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
03-31-2012 11:38 AM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
Sorry for "quote mining" I was just trying to be concise by using your words. It will take me a while to go through Isaiah 52 and give a more thorough response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 11:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 12:01 PM bridgebuilder has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 118 of 255 (657855)
03-31-2012 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
I think the thread was an interesting one and it might be worth taking the time to read through it before trying to tackle any one of the examples. More of the so called prophecies from Isaiah are touched on as well as a discussion of how I believe the term "Prophesy" is misused by many chapters of Club Christian.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 11:48 AM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 12:15 PM jar has responded

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2629 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 119 of 255 (657856)
03-31-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
03-31-2012 12:01 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
jar writes:

I think the thread was an interesting one and it might be worth taking the time to read through it before trying to tackle any one of the examples. More of the so called prophecies from Isaiah are touched on as well as a discussion of how I believe the term "Prophesy" is misused by many chapters of Club Christian.

Yes this is an interesting topic. I haven't read enough of the thread yet to understand your take on the word "Prophesy." I will do so before responding to the initial post again. What does 'Club Christian' mean? Is this the same thing as the fundamentalists?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 12:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 12:49 PM bridgebuilder has responded

    
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2629 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 120 of 255 (657858)
03-31-2012 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
11-29-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Genesis 49:10
jar writes:

The next so called Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus claimed was Genesis 49:10.

quote:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

But is this a reference to Jesus?

Let's look at Genesis 49:10 in context....

....Wow, it seems it is about the Twelve Tribes, where they will be located and what their characteristics will be.

And the support that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus is?

A contrived genealogy.

There are some sects that support these claims. British-Israelism is one example, though some of its sub-sects were very racist against Jews. There are also some Jews that support this theory, (like britam.org) though not mainstream. Both believe that all the European royalty descended from King David, thus Judah, although I haven't researched this enough to know whether their claims have any merit. This would also make a good topic for a thread, like where are the 'lost tribes' now?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 10:15 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 121 of 255 (657859)
03-31-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 12:15 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
No, Club Christian simply refers to all the different chapters, churches and sects of modern Christianity. There is the RCC Chapter, Henry's Chapter, the Sees of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, the chapters formed by Calvin and Knox and Luther and Zwingli as well as all the various unrecognized but tacitly accepted unaligned groups that claim membership in the larger Club Christian.

All of the various chapters at a minimum claim to adhere to a minimal set of beliefs, most often outlined by the Nicene Creed, but each chapter also has its own local bylaws, dogma and traditions.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 12:15 PM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 12:59 PM jar has responded

  
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