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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 122 of 255 (657860)
03-31-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
03-31-2012 12:49 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
I don't agree with the Nicene creed. The pagan emperor, Constantine, favored Anthanasius' position over Arius' opinion regarding the nature of the godhead. Nor do I understand why Martin Luther took it with him in the reformation movement.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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 Message 121 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 12:49 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 123 of 255 (657863)
03-31-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
Again, calling Constantine a pagan Emperor doesn't make much sense and there is little evidence that Constantine had any position on the Arius position that I know of.

But it is also off topic here.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 12:59 PM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 1:21 PM jar has responded

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 124 of 255 (657864)
03-31-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
03-31-2012 1:11 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
It is my understanding that he was a sun-worshiper and had a deathbed baptism (though hotly-debated). But whether true or not, my personal opinion is that he used Christianity as a political tool, especially in light of his murdering his wife and son. But you're right, its off-topic.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 125 of 255 (657866)
03-31-2012 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 1:21 PM


Why Christianity even exists
One point that might almost be on topic is that a major reason exists and grew so quickly through the western world is that it was a political tool. It was the adoption of Christianity as a State Religion that gave the movement legitimacy and provided the military might that was used to expand the religion. It has only been relatively recently that Christianity lost that military and State support, it is still though largely a political tool.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 126 of 255 (657867)
03-31-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
03-31-2012 1:31 PM


Re: Why Christianity even exists
I agree with that point. However, I personally believe this merging of the church with political power was what corrupted the faith and was foretold in Timothy. I think Christianity would have spread regardless. It was spreading rapidly and many Christians died in the Roman Colosseum prior to Constantine coming to power. He couldn't stop the movement so he took advantage of it. But again, that is my personal opinion. Jesus did not try to flatter the political powers of his day, but had the attitude of 'rendering to Caesar what was Caesar's, and to what is God's to God'. I doubt he appreciated his church becoming a political tool and the use of military might to force conversions, or the the employment of Inquisitions to torture people. He never forced anything on anyone, but respected the principle of free-will. Not to mention the history of antisemitism. After all, Jesus was a Jew.
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bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 127 of 255 (657877)
03-31-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
07-20-2011 9:08 AM


Re: bottom line
jar writes:

Re: bottom line
And rightly so since Jesus does not meet any of the requirements to be a messiah.

I know I haven't quite read all this thread in its entirety yet by pulling up this old post, but I found this concept intriguing. You say that you are Christian but you don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I would like to understand this. I thought it was mutually exclusive in that either one believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and because of that one is a Christian, I thought this was the basis for being Christian, though perhaps erroneously. I am aware that in Judaism, they believe that coming of the Messiah is something that hasn't happened yet and is a future event. And Christ being the Savior is simply nonsense if one is an atheist or believes in Buddhism, Hinduism or etc. And that Jesus is just a prophet according to Islam. How is a Christian defined in your viewpoint? I see that it isn't conventional, but neither was Jesus, so that is not a negative. Please enlighten me about your confines/ perimeters of being a Christian, if there are any.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 128 of 255 (657878)
03-31-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 5:05 PM


Re: bottom line
The Messiah as seen by the Jews (all the Old Testament) is an earthly Prince, a war lord.

To be a messiah you need to be a heroic leader that restores Israel and rules as a Prince. It is a here, now, earthly, theocratic Kingdom.

The figure that most stands out as a Messiah is Simon bar Kokhba.

Christianity redefined the meaning of the term and constantly changed the description of what a Messiah would be and what the Messianic Kingdom would be like.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and left out an 'a'


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 5:05 PM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 5:57 PM jar has responded

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 129 of 255 (657883)
03-31-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
03-31-2012 5:28 PM


Re: bottom line
Thank you for clarifying your views.I have read about the Bar Kokhba revolt against Roman rule. I will have to disagree (though amicably with this position) even though it was an impressive campaign due to it lasting only 2-3 years. I personally believe that when the true Messiah comes, it will be an eternal governance.

I agree with a poster (now inactive) who brought up passages from Zechariah that pointed out that the Messiah was an end of the world event and would be fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Yet, I do appreciate your response.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 130 of 255 (657884)
03-31-2012 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 5:57 PM


Re: bottom line
Well bring the passage back up and we can look at it.

But if it is an end of times prophecy it is still an unfulfilled or failed prophecy.

But that still has nothing to do with what the Jewish Messianic ideal was.

Yes, bar Kokhba turned out to be another failed messiah, but at least he met the requirements to be a messiah. Jesus did not in any way.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 5:57 PM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 131 of 255 (657886)
03-31-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 11:25 AM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
there is a consensus in Christianity that the 'suffering servant' was Jesus Christ. If Jesus was betrayed by one of his followers, humiliated by his captors, stripped, flogged with a cat 'o nine tails and had thorns driven into his scalp after being in the Garden of Gethsemane all night while sweating drops of blood from anguish, this torment would be very disfiguring and dehumanizing. It is 'wise' in that he did not yield to the temptation to not 'drink from the bitter cup' and avoid being crucified, thereby making the atoning sacrifice.

Seems to me there are a few ways to interpret the evidence. One could very obviously make comparisons to the Suffering Servant with Jesus prima facie, but then, it is also vague.

The alternative was that Jesus set out to create a self-fulfilling prophecy for himself, intentionally trying to draw comparisons between himself and messianic literature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJdMezcqio


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 132 of 255 (657887)
03-31-2012 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
03-31-2012 6:02 PM


Re: bottom line
Yes, I agrree. iI is either unfulfilled or failed. I am still trying to catch up with this thread and read and compose an opinion on Issiah 52.

There are some brilliant members on here, but unfortunately, I don't think I can pull their multitasking skills off in the same manner without using tactics that play on on the defense mechanisms of others. I am here to gain/share knowledge, so when I finish reviewing Zachariah, I will post a response to this particular message. What comes to mind, is that this particular book tries to demonstrate that the Jews will reject the Messiah (JC) because he didnt wage a revolt against Roman oppression.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 133 of 255 (657888)
03-31-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 6:23 PM


Re: bottom line
Then in relation to this topic it is NOT a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 6:23 PM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 6:53 PM jar has responded

  
bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 134 of 255 (657889)
03-31-2012 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Hyroglyphx
03-31-2012 6:10 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
[Hyroglypx]Seems to me there are a few ways to interpret the evidence. One could very obviously make comparisons to the Suffering Servant with Jesus prima facie, but then, it is also vague.

Hyroglyphs writes:

The alternative was that Jesus set out to create a self-fulfilling prophecy for himself, intentionally trying to draw comparisons between himself and messianic literature.

I don't dispute this. To believe in that JC was the Messiah would require a personal, spiritual experience. I cannot provide that. I can choose to debunk my owns spiritual experience as a mental deficiency or accept it. If I am found to be mentally deranged, then there is no need to regard anything I have posted. I am fine with that, and the ridicule such a statement will obviously bring.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 135 of 255 (657890)
03-31-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Hyroglyphx
03-31-2012 6:10 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
Or the authors and marketers of the new religion tried to shoehorn older material into the new mythos called Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-31-2012 6:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2624 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 136 of 255 (657891)
03-31-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
03-31-2012 6:33 PM


Re: bottom line
jar writes:

Then in relation to this topic it is NOT a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.

True. so I suppose there is no need to delve into into this idea in this thread. Unless you are willing to expand the perimeters to un-yet fulfilled prophesies and the Administrators concur.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 03-31-2012 6:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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