|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Let's face it... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: And I assert that in any system where the plenun of choices is restricted there is no free will.....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: Having a limit to what you can do does not mean you have no free will. Because you can not grow to be 20 feet tall doesn't mean you don't have free will. You have free will to attempt the impossible, but that doesn't mean you can obtain the impossible.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5213 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
"Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid."
1/ God KNOWS the nature of man, he created him. Some people would have eaten it, some wouldn't. Some people WOULD have followed ALL the rules. Incidentally, what are these rules that no-one can follow. You seem very sure I would be fallible. 2/ For the third time....... "I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all." Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: But by your own logic if original sin holds true man cannot ever make an honest attempt at living free from sin so their free will is constrained and therefore a misnomer.... I can make an honest effort to discover surgical, genetic manipulation techniques to achieve the end of growing to be 20 ft tall... I may fail in both cases the difference is that there is a possible solution that involves the achievement of my aims in the second case, a solution that is missing assuming your original sin constraint of free will....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: This is you putting human qualities into God. If you or I created something than yes we should know everything about it. But when God creates something he is certainly capible of making it's nature unknown to him if he chooses. Or, it's also feasible that God did know our nature when he created us, and our redemtion through Jesus Christ was his elaborate plan for us that he knew all along. As far as you stand I reserve judgement because I myself am fallible as well (through no suprise to you I am sure [b] [QUOTE]
2/ For the third time....... "I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all." Mark[/b] [/QUOTE] If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty. Yes the apple that adam ate was a specific action, but that showed God that man can not be trusted. God can judge us all based on that one action of Adam. And it is an accurate judgement or else we wouldn't have the expression "we're only human, we make mistakes."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lburbank111 Inactive Member |
quote: Where does the bible say that it's an apple? How could Adam (working within the myth) know if it was right or wrong before he ate from the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"? If people are still sinners, as you state, then how can they enter heaven, since you also state that nothing impure can enter heaven?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: Oh man can always try to live without sin. We're supposed to try. But what we have to realize is we can't make it. So that's where Jesus comes in.
[b] [QUOTE]
I can make an honest effort to discover surgical, genetic manipulation techniques to achieve the end of growing to be 20 ft tall...[/b][/QUOTE] Right.... Even if it were possible, you'd be good at basketball but still wouldn't get around the other end of my analogy.
[b] [QUOTE]
I may fail in both cases the difference is that there is a possible solution that involves the achievement of my aims in the second case, a solution that is missing assuming your original sin constraint of free will....[/b][/QUOTE] Free will gives us the ability to do whatever is humanly possibly. I will forever retain the elementary knowledge that everyone makes mistakes(or sins.) And everyone knows it's impossible not to ever make a mistake.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: Very good. Actually it says fruit, but the common idea is it was an apple, so I said apple.
[b] [QUOTE]
How could Adam (working within the myth) know if it was right or wrong before he ate from the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"?[/b][/QUOTE] The bible says God told him not to eat from that tree.
[b] [QUOTE]
If people are still sinners, as you state, then how can they enter heaven, since you also state that nothing impure can enter heaven?[/b][/QUOTE] Good question my friend. Jesus died for our sins and through praying to Jesus that you know you sin(make mistakes against God's word) and asking for forgiveness you may enter heaven through his suffering. For nothing may exist in heaven that includes sin and the only to be cleared of sin is through Jesus.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5213 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
"If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty."
In which case, the death penalty for "being human" would be unfair? ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: No, if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5213 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
"if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.) "
Let me clarify, do you think the death penalty is fair punishment for the terrible crime of being human? ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: The judgment is fair. The punishment isn't fair. For disobeying God I believe the punishment we receive is fair. Yet God gives us redemption through Jesus Christ which shows his limitness love and forgiveness.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5213 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
It took a long time getting here......
"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex." "Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation." So you link human nature with original sin. Being human is inherently sinful because Adam disobeyed God. You then go on to say that the death penalty for being human isn't fair. "The judgment is fair. The punishment isn't fair. & For disobeying God I believe the punishment we receive is fair." So, finally, back to points made on the first page. Unborn children with congenital illnesses that can only be death sentences you say are for original sin (being human), & as a punishment imposed by God is fair dincum. But you contradict yourself in saying its not fair? So you think Gods not fair, but actually you do........
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
quote: For a man to deny me life because I am just like him, that is not fair. For God to deny me life because I am not like him, that is fair. Because of course we are not like God. But in order to judge someone of something you must yourself lack that which you judge them on. So therefor if God gives us the death penalty for what we are, then yes that is fair. But how man A say man B is guilty of death simply for being a man, when man A is a man as well? You see the judgement of man would be hypocritical, but the judgement of God would not.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
redstang281 Inactive Member |
I ask athiest and evolutionist to think in terms of creation for one momment please. If everyone from Adam until present day obeyed the law in the bible of waiting until marriage to have sex, don't you think std's would barely be anything of a problem?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024