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Author Topic:   An Atheist By Any Other Name . . .
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 91 of 209 (658182)
04-03-2012 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by New Cat's Eye
04-02-2012 4:18 PM


"Positive" Atheism
CS writes:
But that's the point that the soft atheists are making, that their's is not a gnostic position, they don't know that god doesn't exist, but they also lack any belief that he does. They're both agnostic and atheistic.
Its only when atheism is taken as a positive position that god does not exist, that it it moves out of agnosticism.
Well I am atheistic in that I don't believe in the existence of god(s).
I am agnostic in the sense that I don't claim absolute certainty (which frankly makes me trivially agnostic about everything including the existence of you and everyone else)
But I do consider there to be positive evidence that god(s) are human inventions in the same way that Leprechauns and Fairies (probably) are.
Does that make me a "positive atheist" or not in your book?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-02-2012 4:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 10:28 AM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 92 of 209 (658191)
04-03-2012 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Straggler
04-03-2012 6:00 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
Well I am atheistic in that I don't believe in the existence of god(s).
I am agnostic in the sense that I don't claim absolute certainty (which frankly makes me trivially agnostic about everything including the existence of you and everyone else)
But I do consider there to be positive evidence that god(s) are human inventions in the same way that Leprechauns and Fairies (probably) are.
Does that make me a "positive atheist" or not in your book?
Yeah, pretty much. If you think that your evidence has lead you to a position of tentatively knowing that god(s) don't exist, then you've taken a positive position. I think you need a little more doubt than just a simple lack of absolute certainty to get both feet into the agnostic camp... as you say, that's more "trivially agnostic". I don't think that's worth distiguishing. I'm comfortable saying that I know that animals evolve, and that I know its because of RM+NS, etc. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on evolution.
The real test is to answer this question succinctly:
Does god exist?
If you say "No", then your a positive atheist. "I doubt it" or "probably not" would be more agnostic positions. And I don't think saying "No" should imply that you're claiming absolute certainty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 04-03-2012 6:00 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 11:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 04-03-2012 1:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 04-04-2012 3:17 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 93 of 209 (658207)
04-03-2012 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2012 10:28 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
Does god exist? . . .
"I doubt it" or "probably not" would be more agnostic positions.
"That is unknowable" would be the agnostic position, would it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 10:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 11:48 AM Taq has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 209 (658212)
04-03-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taq
04-03-2012 11:38 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
"That is unknowable" would be the agnostic position, would it not?
Not necessarily. Agnosticism gets boken down into strong and weak positions as well.
Technically you're right, that True Agnosticism is the position that we cannot know if god exists or not. But its also used to describe an uncommitted position that doesn't rely on it being unknowable.
Wiki gets into it:
quote:
Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")
The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."
Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, when there is evidence, we can find something out."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 11:38 AM Taq has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 95 of 209 (658246)
04-03-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2012 10:28 AM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
CS writes:
Yeah, pretty much. If you think that your evidence has lead you to a position of tentatively knowing that god(s) don't exist, then you've taken a positive position. I think you need a little more doubt than just a simple lack of absolute certainty to get both feet into the agnostic camp... as you say, that's more "trivially agnostic". I don't think that's worth distiguishing. I'm comfortable saying that I know that animals evolve, and that I know its because of RM+NS, etc. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on evolution.
I'm comfortable saying that I know that humans invented the concept of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/etc. and that I know this because of all of the evidence in favour of this positive position. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on the question of the existence of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/Etc except in this sense of lacking such certainty.
CS writes:
The real test is to answer this question succinctly: Does god exist?
If you say "No", then your a positive atheist. "I doubt it" or "probably not" would be more agnostic positions. And I don't think saying "No" should imply that you're claiming absolute certainty.
Well based on the positive evidence I would say very probably not.
Presumably in exactly the same way you would about un-evidenced alternatives to your positive conclusion regarding evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 10:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 2:11 PM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 209 (658258)
04-03-2012 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Straggler
04-03-2012 1:02 PM


Re: "Positive" Atheism
I'm comfortable saying that I know that humans invented the concept of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/etc. and that I know this because of all of the evidence in favour of this positive position. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on the question of the existence of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/Etc except in this sense of lacking such certainty.
Sounds like positive atheism to me. Although, it would be stronger if you left out the 'concept of' part: "I know that humans invented god(s)"
'Cause, ya know, humans invented the concept of evolution too. Its just that we know its an accurate conception.
Well based on the positive evidence I would say very probably not.
Presumably in exactly the same way you would about un-evidenced alternatives to your positive conclusion regarding evolution?
Not exactly the same way... you know this. Are you trying to play Gotcha?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 04-03-2012 1:02 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Straggler, posted 04-04-2012 3:04 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 97 of 209 (658264)
04-03-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Taq
04-02-2012 1:53 PM


Re: hedging
Taq writes:
If someone arrives at the belief that the Hindu pantheon really does exist after a lifetime of study, mediation, introspection, and life experiences would you feel compelled to believe in the Hindu pantheon as well? If not, then why should atheists feel compelled to believe in your deity for the same reason?
No.
I am not trying to convert atheists. I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Taq, posted 04-02-2012 1:53 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 3:44 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 99 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 3:45 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 102 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 4:27 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 04-03-2012 9:35 PM shadow71 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 98 of 209 (658267)
04-03-2012 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by shadow71
04-03-2012 3:26 PM


I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs.
I used to be too. But that's because "atheist" means something different to you. It made me wonder why they'd even want to use a word that other people's impressions of do not describe them. Too, what with the whole reclaiming it from a stronger to weaker position.
I still don't really get it, which is why I'm on the side of picking a better word to describe their position. But then, that has more to do with what "atheist" means to me. And the meanings of words evolve so its really no big deal either way.

This message is a reply to:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 99 of 209 (658268)
04-03-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by shadow71
04-03-2012 3:26 PM


Re: hedging
I am not trying to convert atheists. I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs.
I wouldn't say atheists' beliefs are ambiguous, they're just tentative, as all beliefs should be if we are to be rational beings. We can never know everything, we're only human, so there is always the possibility that something we don't know can show us we're wrong.
Is that not the case for you? Is there anything that could possibly prove to you that god doesn't exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 3:26 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 3:57 PM Perdition has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 100 of 209 (658274)
04-03-2012 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Perdition
04-03-2012 3:45 PM


Re: hedging
Perdition writes:
Is that not the case for you? Is there anything that could possibly prove to you that god doesn't exist?
Honestly. No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 3:45 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 4:08 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 101 of 209 (658278)
04-03-2012 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by shadow71
04-03-2012 3:57 PM


Re: hedging
Honestly. No.
Ok.
I can't wrap my head around that level of certainty, which may be why religion didn't "stick" with me. I can't think of anything that I believe so strongly that I cannot conceive of something that would change my mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 3:57 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 102 of 209 (658284)
04-03-2012 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by shadow71
04-03-2012 3:26 PM


Re: hedging
In message 71 you stated:
Yes, it is I the theist, who after study, mediation, introspection and life experiences does come to a belief.
Is that something the atheist cannot accept?
It would appear that study, mediation, instrospection, and life experiences are not acceptable to you, either.
I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs.
That is a bit like trying to analyze the golf swing of a non-golfer. Atheism is defined by a LACK OF belief. "Atheist beliefs" is an oxymoron.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 3:26 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 7:48 PM Taq has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 103 of 209 (658305)
04-03-2012 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Taq
04-03-2012 4:27 PM


Re: hedging
Taq writes:
It would appear that study, mediation, instrospection, and life experiences are not acceptable to you, either.
Afraid I don't get your meaning. Please enlighten me.
Taq writes:
That is a bit like trying to analyze the golf swing of a non-golfer. Atheism is defined by a LACK OF belief. "Atheist beliefs" is an oxymoron.
Not really. Your belief is that there is no supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 4:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Rahvin, posted 04-03-2012 8:00 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 105 by hooah212002, posted 04-03-2012 8:13 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 112 by Taq, posted 04-04-2012 11:14 AM shadow71 has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 104 of 209 (658307)
04-03-2012 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by shadow71
04-03-2012 7:48 PM


Re: hedging
Not really. Your belief is that there is no supernatural.
Not really. We just don't find any convincing reason to believe in the supernatural.
There's a difference.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 7:48 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 105 of 209 (658308)
04-03-2012 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by shadow71
04-03-2012 7:48 PM


Re: hedging
Your belief is that there is no supernatural.
You've had how many people explain this to you...and you still don't get it? There is a difference between "I don't believe X" and "I believe X to be false". What bit of it don't you get? I'm afraid there aren't many more ways we can say this to you.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by shadow71, posted 04-03-2012 7:48 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
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