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Author Topic:   The Three Kinds of Creationists
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 286 of 432 (658219)
04-03-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by jar
04-03-2012 11:57 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
I don't see any reason to doubt any evidence found.
If god can plant evidence, as you claim to believe, doesn't that mean any and all evidence could be planted? Shouldn't that add at least a little doubt? It would for me if I believed what you believe in this case.
And correct, I do not find that problematic because we can only work with the knowledge available.
Yeah, but if you truly believe that knowledge to be suspect, then you would have to take all knowledge with a grain of salt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 12:07 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 12:20 PM Perdition has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 432 (658220)
04-03-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:03 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
If god can plant evidence, as you claim to believe, doesn't that mean any and all evidence could be planted? Shouldn't that add at least a little doubt? It would for me if I believed what you believe in this case.
We could just be a brain in a jar, but without any reason to think that we are, it doesn't become problematic.
I don't doubt that this is real every second of the day, even though it could all be a dream because I don't have any reason to think that it actually is. But it could be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:03 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 288 of 432 (658221)
04-03-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by jar
04-03-2012 11:41 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
In your example you mentioned GOD placing false fingerprints at a crime scene and I said that I believe that would be possible.
BUT, all we can go by is what science can show us and that is that the fingerprints were found at the crime scene.
Science goes farther than that, however. Science then compares the fingerprints at the crime sciene with the fingerprints of the defendant to determine if they are a match. If they match, then the forensic scientist uses this evidence to conclude that the defendant was at the crime scene and left those fingerprints. That is the science. Believing that GOD could have produced those fingerprints without the defendant ever being present directly casts doubt on the science. It requires the scientific conclusion to be thrown out. That is a problematic worldview.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 12:25 PM Taq has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 289 of 432 (658226)
04-03-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2012 12:07 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
We could just be a brain in a jar, but without any reason to think that we are, it doesn't become problematic.
The difference is that, while I admit the possibility, I don't actually believe it's true. if I did, I would act on that belief.
Jar says he believes that God can plant evidence. That should make him suspect all evidence.
I don't doubt that this is real every second of the day, even though it could all be a dream because I don't have any reason to think that it actually is. But it could be.
Exactly my point. You don't believe it, despite remainging open to the possibility. If you did believe it...besides probably being locked up in a padded room somewhere...wouldn't you act differently?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 12:40 PM Perdition has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 290 of 432 (658227)
04-03-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:03 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Well all evidence could be planted; that is true today and yes, all knowledge should be taken with a heavy does of salt. Science does this by process and holds every conclusion tentative.
But since as I have asserted throughout this thread there is no way to test the supernatural, we must simply work with what we do know.
The fact that I know the chair I'm about to sit on is really not solid and just made up of a bunch of tiny things with more space than object does not keep me from sitting down with a high degree of confidence that the chair will support my ass.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:03 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 432 (658228)
04-03-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Taq
04-03-2012 12:07 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Uh, no, it does not require that the conclusion get thrown out unless evidence could be presented that would show that God planted it.
Since that is impossible, we must go with what can be demonstrated.
Where is the problematic worldview?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 12:07 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Taq, posted 04-03-2012 4:18 PM jar has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 292 of 432 (658230)
04-03-2012 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
04-03-2012 12:20 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Well all evidence could be planted; that is true today and yes, all knowledge should be taken with a heavy does of salt. Science does this by process and holds every conclusion tentative.
Science may, but legal systems don't. Should murderers and other criminals be able to get off by claiming that any and all evidence showing they committed the crime was potentially planted by god? If you believe that possibility and were on the jury, it should give you enough doubt to let them off.
The fact that I know the chair I'm about to sit on is really not solid and just made up of a bunch of tiny things with more space than object does not keep me from sitting down with a high degree of confidence that the chair will support my ass.
That's because you uinderstand the physics and have literally millions of examples of sitting on chairs with which to proceed with confidence. If I believed that it was possible that not only would the chair not support my weight, but there may not even be a chair there, I probably wouldn't sit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 12:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 12:40 PM Perdition has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 432 (658234)
04-03-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:30 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Perdition writes:
jar writes:
Well all evidence could be planted; that is true today and yes, all knowledge should be taken with a heavy does of salt. Science does this by process and holds every conclusion tentative.
Science may, but legal systems don't. Should murderers and other criminals be able to get off by claiming that any and all evidence showing they committed the crime was potentially planted by god? If you believe that possibility and were on the jury, it should give you enough doubt to let them off.
Is it a good idea for you to try to tell me what I would do?
I do believe that all evidence could be planted by God and I have been on a jury (but get turned down far more often) and I did not find my beliefs sufficient reason to think any evidence was planted.
Folk often claim that the evidence was planted, by the police, the CIA, the FBI, an enemy, person or persons unknown, and it is possible that those claims might be true.
But juries seldom buy the planted evidence ploy.
Years ago there was a magician that did his act during dinner at the Hyatt on Hilton Head, and I saw people sit in chairs that were not there.
In the case of the chair, you test enough for you to be satisfied there is a chair there and then act on what you can know.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:30 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 432 (658235)
04-03-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:16 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
We could just be a brain in a jar, but without any reason to think that we are, it doesn't become problematic.
The difference is that, while I admit the possibility, I don't actually believe it's true. if I did, I would act on that belief.
Jar says he believes that God can plant evidence. That should make him suspect all evidence.
No. God could, but that doesn't mean he did. Without a reason to think he did, then no problem, but he still could have.
I don't doubt that this is real every second of the day, even though it could all be a dream because I don't have any reason to think that it actually is. But it could be.
Exactly my point. You don't believe it, despite remainging open to the possibility. If you did believe it...besides probably being locked up in a padded room somewhere...wouldn't you act differently?
If I had reason to think I was dreaming, then I'd try flying around like I always do...
But I don't have any reason to think I'm dreaming. Still, I could be dreaming.
There's a difference in accepting that you could be dreaming and believing that you are dreaming and you seem to be conflating the two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:16 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 297 by Straggler, posted 04-03-2012 1:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 295 of 432 (658242)
04-03-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by jar
04-03-2012 12:40 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Is it a good idea for you to try to tell me what I would do?
I never said what you would do. I said what you should do, but maybe I should rephrase that as what I would do in your position.
I do believe that all evidence could be planted by God and I have been on a jury (but get turned down far more often) and I did not find my beliefs sufficient reason to think any evidence was planted.
But you don't have to bvelieve that it was only that you have reasonable doubt.
Folk often claim that the evidence was planted, by the police, the CIA, the FBI, an enemy, person or persons unknown, and it is possible that those claims might be true.
And you can investigate those claims and find if there is reason to believe them or not. You claim that you can't investigate the claim that god planted it, so how do you determine whether god did or not. Do you just believe that while god can plant evidence, he never does? That seems kind of weak to me.
But juries seldom buy the planted evidence ploy.
Usually because the prosecution does an adequate job of proving that nothing was planted. Again, not possible for god, under your beliefs.
Years ago there was a magician that did his act during dinner at the Hyatt on Hilton Head, and I saw people sit in chairs that were not there.
You've said that magicians are using tricks. So, I presume you didn't actually see people sitting in chairs that weren't there.
In the case of the chair, you test enough for you to be satisfied there is a chair there and then act on what you can know.
If I believed as you do, I couldn't know anything. I'd have to be very Descartean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 12:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 1:07 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 296 of 432 (658243)
04-03-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2012 12:40 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
Without a reason to think he did, then no problem, but he still could have.
What sort of reason could cause you to think he did. And remember, Jar believes that it is impossible to draw any conclusions about god or his actions scientifically. Would you have to have an angel whisper it in your ear?
There's a difference in accepting that you could be dreaming and believing that you are dreaming and you seem to be conflating the two.
No, I thik you are. Jar is the one who believes, and yet his beliefs seem not to affect his actions in any way. If I BELIEVED something, I would act on that belief. If I merely allowed that it was possible I'd be much more tentative in my actions, testing and seeing if the possibility had any evidence for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 2:10 PM Perdition has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 297 of 432 (658247)
04-03-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2012 12:40 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
CS writes:
But I don't have any reason to think I'm dreaming. Still, I could be dreaming.
There's a difference in accepting that you could be dreaming and believing that you are dreaming and you seem to be conflating the two.
So do you think you are dreaming?
Or is the absence of evidence that you are dreaming a sufficient basis upon which to conclude that you aren't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2012 2:13 PM Straggler has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 298 of 432 (658249)
04-03-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Perdition
04-03-2012 12:55 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
It's likely a good thing that you are not me then.
I have no idea whether God does plant evidence or not, but I do know that I see no way to ever test whether God planted the evidence or not, and so I simply exclude that possibility unless someone can show sufficient evidence to convince me that is that given case God did plant the evidence.
I also know that the police could plant evidence, or the CIA or FBI and in fact have done so in the past, yet I do not assume that just because they have done it in the past that they did in the case under question without strong evidence that they did it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 12:55 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Perdition, posted 04-03-2012 1:12 PM jar has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 299 of 432 (658250)
04-03-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by jar
04-03-2012 1:07 PM


Re: Supernatural 101
It's likely a good thing that you are not me then.
Probably. I rather prefer being myself, no offense.
I have no idea whether God does plant evidence or not, but I do know that I see no way to ever test whether God planted the evidence or not, and so I simply exclude that possibility unless someone can show sufficient evidence to convince me that is that given case God did plant the evidence.
But this is what gets me. You say that evidence about god is impossible. You then say that you believe god can do something, but in order to believe it in a specific case, you'd need the aforementioned impossible evidence.
It seems to me that either you don't actually believe god can do something, but are simply open to the possibility, or you're ok with the fact that we may be sending even more innocent people to prison and/or death than we already have evidence for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 1:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 1:21 PM Perdition has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 300 of 432 (658251)
04-03-2012 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by jar
04-03-2012 11:57 AM


Re: Supernatural 101
jar writes:
I don't see any reason to doubt any evidence found.
And correct, I do not find that problematic because we can only work with the knowledge available.
But if godly deceit is a possibility worthy of genuine consideration then how can you have any knowledge of anything at all? Everything you experience must be deemed as no more likely to be true than false.
Or do you think we can legitimately dismiss un-evidenced but unfalsifiable claims such as the notion that godly deceit is going on all around us?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by jar, posted 04-03-2012 1:27 PM Straggler has replied

  
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