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Author | Topic: An Atheist By Any Other Name . . . | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 391 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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CS writes: But that's the point that the soft atheists are making, that their's is not a gnostic position, they don't know that god doesn't exist, but they also lack any belief that he does. They're both agnostic and atheistic. Its only when atheism is taken as a positive position that god does not exist, that it it moves out of agnosticism. Well I am atheistic in that I don't believe in the existence of god(s).I am agnostic in the sense that I don't claim absolute certainty (which frankly makes me trivially agnostic about everything including the existence of you and everyone else) But I do consider there to be positive evidence that god(s) are human inventions in the same way that Leprechauns and Fairies (probably) are. Does that make me a "positive atheist" or not in your book?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Well I am atheistic in that I don't believe in the existence of god(s). I am agnostic in the sense that I don't claim absolute certainty (which frankly makes me trivially agnostic about everything including the existence of you and everyone else) But I do consider there to be positive evidence that god(s) are human inventions in the same way that Leprechauns and Fairies (probably) are. Does that make me a "positive atheist" or not in your book? Yeah, pretty much. If you think that your evidence has lead you to a position of tentatively knowing that god(s) don't exist, then you've taken a positive position. I think you need a little more doubt than just a simple lack of absolute certainty to get both feet into the agnostic camp... as you say, that's more "trivially agnostic". I don't think that's worth distiguishing. I'm comfortable saying that I know that animals evolve, and that I know its because of RM+NS, etc. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on evolution. The real test is to answer this question succinctly: Does god exist? If you say "No", then your a positive atheist. "I doubt it" or "probably not" would be more agnostic positions. And I don't think saying "No" should imply that you're claiming absolute certainty.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Does god exist? . . . "I doubt it" or "probably not" would be more agnostic positions. "That is unknowable" would be the agnostic position, would it not?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
"That is unknowable" would be the agnostic position, would it not? Not necessarily. Agnosticism gets boken down into strong and weak positions as well. Technically you're right, that True Agnosticism is the position that we cannot know if god exists or not. But its also used to describe an uncommitted position that doesn't rely on it being unknowable.
Wiki gets into it:
quote:
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Straggler Member (Idle past 391 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: Yeah, pretty much. If you think that your evidence has lead you to a position of tentatively knowing that god(s) don't exist, then you've taken a positive position. I think you need a little more doubt than just a simple lack of absolute certainty to get both feet into the agnostic camp... as you say, that's more "trivially agnostic". I don't think that's worth distiguishing. I'm comfortable saying that I know that animals evolve, and that I know its because of RM+NS, etc. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on evolution. I'm comfortable saying that I know that humans invented the concept of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/etc. and that I know this because of all of the evidence in favour of this positive position. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on the question of the existence of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/Etc except in this sense of lacking such certainty.
CS writes: The real test is to answer this question succinctly: Does god exist? If you say "No", then your a positive atheist. "I doubt it" or "probably not" would be more agnostic positions. And I don't think saying "No" should imply that you're claiming absolute certainty. Well based on the positive evidence I would say very probably not. Presumably in exactly the same way you would about un-evidenced alternatives to your positive conclusion regarding evolution?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm comfortable saying that I know that humans invented the concept of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/etc. and that I know this because of all of the evidence in favour of this positive position. I can take a positive position on that even though I don't claim absolute certainty and I wouldn't say that I'm agnostic on the question of the existence of god(s)/Leprechauns/Fairies/Etc except in this sense of lacking such certainty. Sounds like positive atheism to me. Although, it would be stronger if you left out the 'concept of' part: "I know that humans invented god(s)" 'Cause, ya know, humans invented the concept of evolution too. Its just that we know its an accurate conception.
Well based on the positive evidence I would say very probably not. Presumably in exactly the same way you would about un-evidenced alternatives to your positive conclusion regarding evolution? Not exactly the same way... you know this. Are you trying to play Gotcha?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 3259 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Taq writes:
If someone arrives at the belief that the Hindu pantheon really does exist after a lifetime of study, mediation, introspection, and life experiences would you feel compelled to believe in the Hindu pantheon as well? If not, then why should atheists feel compelled to believe in your deity for the same reason? No.I am not trying to convert atheists. I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs. I used to be too. But that's because "atheist" means something different to you. It made me wonder why they'd even want to use a word that other people's impressions of do not describe them. Too, what with the whole reclaiming it from a stronger to weaker position. I still don't really get it, which is why I'm on the side of picking a better word to describe their position. But then, that has more to do with what "atheist" means to me. And the meanings of words evolve so its really no big deal either way.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3563 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
I am not trying to convert atheists. I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs. I wouldn't say atheists' beliefs are ambiguous, they're just tentative, as all beliefs should be if we are to be rational beings. We can never know everything, we're only human, so there is always the possibility that something we don't know can show us we're wrong. Is that not the case for you? Is there anything that could possibly prove to you that god doesn't exist?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 3259 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Perdition writes:
Is that not the case for you? Is there anything that could possibly prove to you that god doesn't exist? Honestly. No.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3563 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
Honestly. No. Ok. I can't wrap my head around that level of certainty, which may be why religion didn't "stick" with me. I can't think of anything that I believe so strongly that I cannot conceive of something that would change my mind.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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In message 71 you stated:
Yes, it is I the theist, who after study, mediation, introspection and life experiences does come to a belief. Is that something the atheist cannot accept? It would appear that study, mediation, instrospection, and life experiences are not acceptable to you, either.
I was just suprised at what I percieve to be the ambiguity of the atheists beliefs.
That is a bit like trying to analyze the golf swing of a non-golfer. Atheism is defined by a LACK OF belief. "Atheist beliefs" is an oxymoron.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 3259 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Taq writes:
It would appear that study, mediation, instrospection, and life experiences are not acceptable to you, either. Afraid I don't get your meaning. Please enlighten me.
Taq writes: Not really. Your belief is that there is no supernatural.
That is a bit like trying to analyze the golf swing of a non-golfer. Atheism is defined by a LACK OF belief. "Atheist beliefs" is an oxymoron.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4084 Joined: Member Rating: 7.8 |
Not really. Your belief is that there is no supernatural. Not really. We just don't find any convincing reason to believe in the supernatural. There's a difference.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 1127 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Your belief is that there is no supernatural. You've had how many people explain this to you...and you still don't get it? There is a difference between "I don't believe X" and "I believe X to be false". What bit of it don't you get? I'm afraid there aren't many more ways we can say this to you."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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