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Author | Topic: Un-conversion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Revelation seems to be a popular way of finding God.
But many atheists have the reverse experience, they just wake up one day and noticed that the kings isn't wearing any clothes. In my case I was born into a Christian family and 100% Christian community. So i was baptised, went to Christian schools, went to mass every Sunday, took all the sacraments, did all the rituals and was even a choir boy. I believed the whole thing. - all of it without reservation. I knew about all the sins and the saints, I believed Christ died for our sins and that the only way to get to heaven was through him. I studied the bible, knew bits of it of by heart and believed every word of it. So my question is, why would God deconvert me? Why be un-revealed? I didn't do anything to deliberately make this happen I just noticed after awhile at the age of 14 or 15 that it was a pile of old bollocks. All of it, simply nonsense that didn't stack up. (For the paranoid anti-evolutionists, this was before I knew anything about evolution). It seems to me that if this God does exist and he is indeed the God of the Christian faith, then he's done himself out of a soul. Now why would he do that? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : Can't spell 'choir'; twice.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Jar writes:
It really depends on which god of the Christian faith you are talking about. I don't see why; i was reading the same bible and praying to he same God.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Shaddow71 writes: I don't think you can blame God for giving you free will. It was your decision. If you wish to share, I would like to know if there was a "trigger" that led you to non-belief? It had nothing to do with free will, I didn't choose to notice that the whole Christian thing is a made up children's story. It was a reverse revelation. I didn't go looking for alternatives I was just standing there in church one day when I noticed what a pile of horse manure it all was. Why would God do that? I know the usual waffle is about testing and long dark nights of the soul, but that really doesn't do it for me; it wasn't about doubt it was about certainty. How can you believe in something that you know is obvious nonsense? Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Jar writes: Tangle asks why "God" would do something. My question is will we ever know why? Will we ever know God? Actually, as I'm an atheist, I obviously don't think it's got anything to do with god. My question is just a way of saying that there is no reason why god would un-reveal himself is there? It's all a nonsense. Because I suddenly saw the light, I am now denied entry into heaven? Simply cobblers, God wouldn't work that way; not and still be the God Christians claim he is anyway. The most obvious explanation is that Christianity is an error. Something we humans just made up.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
GDR writes: My point is that it is the condition of our heart regardless of our theological beliefs that make us right with God. Then, everything Christian is worthless except 'do as you would be done by' which is the core of prettey much every faith and all democratic societies. Christianity and faith in Gods are simply redundant. Of course, this is absolutely NOT what the established faiths have said until relatively recently. Choose my faith or go to hell is what they mostly say.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
anglagard writes: So, please let me know if you have some secret esoteric knowledge since I am as yet unaware I suspect that revelations are always certain ;-) I have the usual scientific, guarded, intellectual reservations about the existence or otherwise of a non-intervening god. But the kind of god Christians talk about - that's just a preposterous joke.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
petrophysicist writes: I don't know about you, but do you think it wise to run and operate your life on the opinion of a 14-15 year old?Not known for their mental ability, knowledge, or psychological maturity. Exactly correct. I believed all the smoke, smells and nonsense until I was old enough to see through it, which for me was about 15.
Maybe think about it.
Perhaps you could think about how patronising that is?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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GDR writes: In looking at it that way though you are going back to the reason you say that you rejected Christianity in the first place. In essence you are saying that the whole point of religion is to avoid going to hell. No, that's not my main point. My main point is about revelation. Many Christians make a big deal of personal revelation as a way of God finding them and vice versa. I experienced the opposite and I suspect many atheists did too. One day you just notice that all the dressing up, chanting belittling and embarassing nonsense and silly rituals are, well, daft. That none of it is actually sane, let alone true. If I'm saying anything meaningful at all about revelation, the fact that this 'god' un-reveals himself to some is evidence that revelation is not godly, it's human.
I agree that the one part of the Christian church, particularly in North America in recent years has tended to go down that road. My point is that view is a major misunderstanding of the Bible. In effect what it does is incorporate a particular misreading of Paul and ignore the Gospels. Of course the underlying message of Jesus et al is fine, but there's no need for all the surrounding nonsense of heaven, hell, Gods and established churches to provide a reason to live a decent life. And you have a very modern, liberal, view of this, the established churches for almost the entirity of the Chritian history have held the opposite view (and many still do) - hell fire and damnation was the message. Be baptised and believe or go to hell.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
shaddow77 writes: I am not trying to be cute or trick you but I seriously would like to know where you think this "reverse revelation" came from. The same place all revelations come from, my mind and only my mind.
Is this something that is nonsense the religlion your were practicing, or the God it was devoted to or both? The religion. If there is a god, he has nothing to do with the religions that are established in his name.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
GDR writes: Who knows where our thoughts come from. I suggest that we all know where our thoughts come from - and it ain't from outside our heads! Not all religious beliefs come via revelation; in fact I'm pretty sure the vast majority are just born into their faiths and then assimilate. It always amuses me that no-one is born believing a different religion to their parents and revelations only happens to those that already have knowledge of that religion. Christianity is never revealed to a muslim in a remote village in the Atlas mountains - nope, it's always Islam. It so obviously all man made, it really puzzles me how many people can swallow it all - even when they can see how utterly embarassing the reality of faith as practiced by the faithful actually is.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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The Golden Rule is not only embedded in most religions it's in most secular institutions too; our laws and socities are built on it. It was part of Jewish culture before Jesus, in fact it's a neurological condition that we call empathy.
It's not an imagined idea, it's a part of our hardwiring. People that don't have it we call pscychopaths are we lock them away. Without empathy societies can't work, it's got absolutely nothing to do with Jesus and religion, it's an evolved trait that had it not evolved neither would humans - or monkeys. Now, if you say that a god invented empathy and planted it in our heads (and the heads of related species too), in such a way as to make it look like it evolved, there's nothing much I can say in response. But I am going to shake my head a little because you're now so far away from Christianity and the bible that you might as well start again and invent a new religion, one that makes a bit more sense of the known facts.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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GDR writes: Actually empathy is just the ability to sympathize with someone Just! It's what makes us human. It's gives us Theory of Mind, the knowledge that others have minds too, you know, consciouness - everything flows from that. Altrusm is a by-product of empathy. Without empathy why would we do anything for someone else? It's a brain condition that resides in the frontal cortex - it's not an idea or something we learn, it's hardwired. If the cortex is damaged, we lose it and behave like sociopaths. You may find the story of Fred interesting. Message 1 I don’t see where the idea that that God instilled it in human consciousness and that it has continued to evolve is contrary to Christianity. It's not at all inconsistent with Christianity, it just makes it redundant. Christianity, along with most religions, just adopted something that is intrinsic to humanity and built a huge pile of ritual, myth and nonsense around it. We can throw it all away and start thinking on human terms about these things now. We don't need the crap anymore. Saying God embedded empathy in our brains just shoves God further back in the chain of events and has got nothing to do with biblical Christianity.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
GM writes: I think that GDR meant to say that Christianity came into existence as a result of belief in a resurrected Jesus, not that the Golden Rule came into existence that way. I think the two of you have your wires crossed. Sure, I understand that. GDR has accepted that the golden rule has existed before Christianity and in other religions. He's also said that the resurection is the belief that is necessary for Christianity - I'm fine with all this. But I think the second has got nothing whatsoever to do with the first.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Rahvin writes: It's interesting to note that sociopaths can actually exhibit empathic behavior even without feeling the emotional drive to do so. Those sociopaths who tend to get press time are not only sociopaths, but also have additional psychological issues like poor impulse control, among other things. People are also clever, they can learn to fake it.
I wouldn't say that empathy is what "makes us human." No, it's not all that makes us H. sapiens, I was on a bit of a rhetorical roll - but it is what makes us 'nice' (at least occasionally). And without it, I really doubt humanity could have evolved in the way we have.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9627 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
GDR writes: We can do that and you have. Still though I go back to the point I’ve made before. Is it more plausible that intelligence and morality had an intelligent and moral first cause or is it more plausible that intelligence and morality had a non-intelligent, non-moral random collection of particles as a first cause. This is a whole new argument and deserves it's own thread. But the fact that morality is a neurological function of the brain, is again something quite outside any concept of biblical Christianity. These arguments only resolve to some form of vague deism, not theism.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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