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Author Topic:   New Tennessee Monkey Law!
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 126 (659018)
04-11-2012 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by dwise1
04-11-2012 12:13 PM


Rather, this law is intended to provide a back-door to bring creationism into the classroom.
Yes, and expect a next step to be insertion of fake science and faux-facts into biology, astronomy, and possibly even history text books (Viriginia already does the latter). Expect to see similar materials mandated into state school curricula in Tennessee.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 126 (659035)
04-12-2012 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
04-11-2012 6:55 PM


Re: teachers
guess it must be location, then. The highschool I went to had a very knowledgeable set of teachers, with the older ones generally having a better grasp on their subject matter. My chemistry teacher, for example, really did know chemistry and I honestly cannot see how anyone could have taught the material he taught without knowing it at a rather deep level.
This was the case for my high school teachers in Georgia. My high school teachers really did know chemistry and physics. I don't remember the older teachers being the most knowledgeable. However, I don't believe that the science teachers I had prior to 9th grade were particularly good at science. And in fact, I can recall two or three particularly inept ones. My eighth grade science teacher was much better at coaching football than teaching science.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 04-11-2012 6:55 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 04-12-2012 9:02 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 33 of 126 (659038)
04-12-2012 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
04-11-2012 7:42 PM


Yes, and expect a next step to be insertion of fake science and faux-facts into biology, astronomy, and possibly even history text books (Viriginia already does the latter). Expect to see similar materials mandated into state school curricula in Tennessee.
Another generation or 2 and the USA will be a backwater fundamentalist country like Afghanistan. The only bad thing is you already have Nukes to go on your Jihad against atheists, Muslims, and all non jebus believers.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(3)
Message 34 of 126 (659065)
04-12-2012 10:32 AM


This bill has the potential to become more than what it says. All of us here are from different walks of life. Some of us are biologists, some are physicists, some are engineers, etc. We all know that most students aren't properly equipped to decide between two "competing" theories of which better represents reality.
For instance, I can completely relate this to my field, which is structural engineering. Most of the public aren't aware that every part of a structure has been very carefully designed and checked by dozens of engineers. There are competing approaches to designing everything from the foundation to the wall to the roof. I wouldn't trust a student to decide which is best for what project. Not for a second.
This bill proposes that students should be allowed to decide for themselves which is real science and which is not. This is the same crap we saw from the DI and creo attempts to insert their religious beliefs not too long ago.
So, no, this doesn't look like a monkey law. But it might as well be a monkey law due to the fact that students are incapable of telling the difference between reality and fiction.

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 04-12-2012 4:15 PM Taz has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 35 of 126 (659128)
04-12-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Taz
04-12-2012 10:32 AM


We all know that most students aren't properly equipped to decide between two "competing" theories of which better represents reality.
From reading these forums, we know that there are many adults that don't understand what a scientific theory is. I would suspect that many of the Tennessee legislators who passed this bill probably don't really understand what a scientific theory is.
I don't see how this bill attempts to cure this problem. In fact, I only see this bill making it worse. Students may very well be taught what science is by Behe. Get ready for a new generation of kids who think Astrology is a science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Taz, posted 04-12-2012 10:32 AM Taz has replied

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 36 of 126 (659134)
04-12-2012 4:50 PM


Wouldn't you be able to sue the pants off any teacher or school that gets ID or creationism into a classroom, according to this bill? I mean, it talks only about scientific controversies and scientific theories, and Neither ID nor creationism is science. The courts have already ruled on that issue.
So, if we are to take this bill literally, any teacher or school that brings up ID or creationism in class can be sued with this law in hand.
Now, they already can be, making this law utterly irrelevant, but that's probably because these idiots think ID and creationism are science.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 126 (659142)
04-12-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by NoNukes
04-12-2012 4:09 AM


Re: teachers
This was the case for my high school teachers in Georgia. My high school teachers really did know chemistry and physics. I don't remember the older teachers being the most knowledgeable. However, I don't believe that the science teachers I had prior to 9th grade were particularly good at science. And in fact, I can recall two or three particularly inept ones. My eighth grade science teacher was much better at coaching football than teaching science.
Yeah. Standards were looser in the lower grades.

Love your enemies!

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 38 of 126 (659147)
04-12-2012 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
04-12-2012 4:15 PM


Taq writes:
From reading these forums, we know that there are many adults that don't understand what a scientific theory is. I would suspect that many of the Tennessee legislators who passed this bill probably don't really understand what a scientific theory is.
This is precisely why I've always advocated we sectionalize society, politics, everything according to their respective field of discipline. For example, let engineers dictate policies regarding engineering research and standards. Let biologists dictate what's best to teach about biology. Let physicists deal with things regarding physics. Let doctors deal with medical stuff. Etc.
I firmly believe a huge part of the problem regarding the progress of any field of discipline is the fact that it is often dictated by people who don't know jack shit about the field.
This law is a perfect demonstration of this.
I've stated this many times before. We live in a day and age when every dumbass in the world thinks he knows everything. What's worse is that now they get to vote by the masses.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by NoNukes, posted 04-13-2012 1:15 PM Taz has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 126 (659218)
04-13-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taz
04-12-2012 11:37 PM


This is precisely why I've always advocated we sectionalize society, politics, everything according to their respective field of discipline. For example, let engineers dictate policies regarding engineering research and standards.
That would seem to make sense, but it is unworkable. For example, when the climatologists tell the engineers to stop burning carbon or our children will have to grow gills, and the engineers point out that burning carbon is the only possible way to supply society's energy needs, then who wins?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taz, posted 04-12-2012 11:37 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Taz, posted 04-13-2012 1:40 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 40 of 126 (659223)
04-13-2012 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by NoNukes
04-13-2012 1:15 PM


NoNukes writes:
That would seem to make sense, but it is unworkable. For example, when the climatologists tell the engineers to stop burning carbon or our children will have to grow gills, and the engineers point out that burning carbon is the only possible way to supply society's energy needs, then who wins?
Then they work out a solution together. For example, climatologists are not dumbasses. They know that we cannot simply stop burning coals over night and not expect society to break down. Engineers are also dumbasses. They know that burning carbon won't last forever. Eventually, fossil fuel runs out.
The climatologists could tell the engineers their projections of how long we have before the point of no return or the critical point. Engineers then go ahead and try to come up with an energy alternative that doesn't involve burning fossil fuel.
The religionists then could come in and declare that god created this planet for us to rape and plunder and that it is best for us to burn fossil fuel so that we all could meet our creators earlier.
The point is we let people to be in charge of their respective fields. The various experts from these fields could work together to come up with solutions for potential problems.
This is why every time a presidential candidate is asked whether he believes in evolution or not, I always cringe. Who the hell cares if they believe in it or not? Unless they are a world's foremost expert on biological science, how the hell is their opinion matter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by NoNukes, posted 04-13-2012 1:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 41 of 126 (659252)
04-13-2012 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
04-11-2012 5:42 PM


staying on topic
Taq writes:
I think you should read up on a few of these Constitutional cases:
The Talk.Origins Archive: Debates, Gatherings & Court Decisions
Epperson v. Arkansas might be worth your attention.
I'm going to stay on topic, and not answer another off topic taq tanget.
Big Government would be using the government to indoctrinate children into specific theologies. That is what we are speaking against.
and that is not what this is, no matter how much to want to spin it that way.
TN is not big government.

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 Message 29 by Taq, posted 04-11-2012 5:42 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 42 of 126 (659284)
04-14-2012 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Taz
04-13-2012 1:40 PM


Engineers are also dumbasses. They know that burning carbon won't last forever. Eventually, fossil fuel runs out.
I'm guessing you left out a "not" in the above.
So you believe everything you hear from Exxon and BP about energy policy? I don't.
Then they work out a solution together.
It will be impossible for them to implement a solution without involving economic and political concerns. For example it might be best to allow cars to continue to use fossil fuels while cutting back on the use of fossil fuels in non-moving applications. But then we have to get people to buy into alternative ways of heating their homes and businesses, providing lighting, cooking etc. And those alternative ways may be more expensive. Do we then prop up the people who cannot afford more expensive energy, or do we scrap the whole idea?
Of course since you want to leave the common people out of things, then whatever the solution, the government is just going to have mandate things and the people are going to have to do what they are told by the experts.
I don't find such a system feasible. The current representative government system is supposed to approximate a system where the real experts solve the problems. We vote for politicians who have the full time job of seeking out an evaluating the science uncovered by the experts. They are supposed to make informed decisions regarding things using real science for us. If those solutions are not working, we vote the representatives out of office.
The real problem, in my view, is that the representatives don't give a hoot about the science. They either don't believe, or won't acknowledge any science or scientists that disagrees with their idiot voters or self centered lobbyists. And the money now flowing around the election process is exacerbating things.
Perhaps we should stop electing lawyers and political science folk who haven't had a real science course since high school and start electing more scientists and engineers.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Taz, posted 04-13-2012 1:40 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by subbie, posted 04-14-2012 11:23 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 44 by Taz, posted 04-14-2012 11:25 PM NoNukes has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 43 of 126 (659305)
04-14-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
04-14-2012 6:51 AM


Perhaps we should stop electing lawyers and political science folk who haven't had a real science course since high school and start electing more scientists and engineers.
No, we need to stop electing pandering idiots who couldn't care less about genuine public policy concerns that might not matter to their base and start electing intelligent people who are willing to listen to facts when presented to them and able to balance problems and arrive at workable solutions. There's no particular reason to think that scientists and engineers are any better at that than lawyers and political science folk. But the lawyers and political science folk do need to listen to the scientists and engineers when they are talking about things that they are educated in.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 126 (659326)
04-14-2012 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
04-14-2012 6:51 AM


NoNukes writes:
So you believe everything you hear from Exxon and BP about energy policy? I don't.
Step back and think about it. Those guys in charge of exxon and bp are not energy scientists. They're capitalists. They're goal is to crew everyone else over to get richer. So, no, I don't believe everything they say.
For the rest of your post, I respectfully disagree.
Your entire argument rests on a single assumption, that the majority of the people know what's best for them and others. Before I go on, please read this article.
Dunning—Kruger effect - Wikipedia
Here's a real life example. I was talking with a group of people in a social gathering a few weeks ago when I mentioned something about the state of Israel. A woman interrupted me and said I incorrectly used the word "state". She went on to explain that the word state refers to individual states within a country. Everyone in the group nodded their heads in agreement. To my disbelief, these people have never heard of the word state in reference to a sovereign nation. This woman and everyone else in the group were quite confident that the word state could not be used in reference to Israel. After I rolled my eyes, I just nodded in agreement with them, knowing nothing I could say could convince them otherwise.
Let's face it. Most people out there are dumbasses. And FYI, I am also a dumbass. The difference between me and most people out there is I recognize it. Most people just go about their daily lives completely oblivious to the bigger world around them.
The last time I checked, the majority of the people still believe in creatioinism.
Or let's look at the current issue on health care. There was poll done by NPR last month that showed more than 80% of the people out there believe that individual mandate in the health care reform requires people to drop their current health insurance from their employment and get their own insurance and that's why they're opposed to individual mandate. After these same people are told that they could keep whatever they have right now, 90% of them switched side and supported individual mandate.
That's my proof right there that most people are too ignorant to decide who's best to run the country. Your entire premise is wrong.
Again, what I am proposing is we put the people who know what they're talking about in charge. Sure, we still elect representatives and the president, but these guys ought not to be able to dictate policies regarding science and other fields of specialty.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2012 9:07 AM Taz has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 45 of 126 (659333)
04-15-2012 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Taz
04-14-2012 11:25 PM


Taz writes:
Let's face it. Most people out there are dumbasses. And FYI, I am also a dumbass. The difference between me and most people out there is I recognize it. Most people just go about their daily lives completely oblivious to the bigger world around them.
Reminds me of the movie Amadeus. At one point Salieri kneels on the floor and asks God why He tortures him by giving him alone the ability to perceive Mozart's genius while denying him the genius itself.
--Percy

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