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Author Topic:   Whether to leave this forum or not
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 307 (655596)
03-11-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by foreveryoung
03-11-2012 4:55 PM


Dean Radin
I see that many, perhaps most, of Mr Radin's publications are in support of the reality of reincarnation. Surely you, then, must think that in this respect at least he's a gullible fool who's been duped into believing in a paranormal phenomenon which does not actually occur.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by foreveryoung, posted 03-11-2012 4:55 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by foreveryoung, posted 03-11-2012 6:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 130 of 307 (655604)
03-11-2012 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by foreveryoung
03-11-2012 6:27 PM


Re: Dean Radin
Also, from his FAQ: "Psi phenomena suggest [...] that assumptions about the divine nature of "miracles" may have been mistaken."
Still, you may cite him if you like. I'm not going to watch his speech, because his ratio of rhetoric to substance seems unnecessarily high, but can you refer me to any of his actual papers that you found convincing?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 146 of 307 (655698)
03-12-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
03-10-2012 12:04 PM


This made a lot of sense. One thing I have to make clear though is this. I have a lot of confidence in what I believe, not based on science, but my faith in God. I don't have much faith in science. I am not trying to be arrogant. I am here merely to discuss my ideas. I am not going to wait for an enormous time, while I thoroughly research an issue or write a research paper of my own documented with references before I dare utter an opinion on this board. I am thinking out loud for Christ's sake. I am not saying I know I am right from a scientific point of view. If I didn't feel confident in my beliefs I would not have any beliefs. What is it you people want from me? ... To say that I don't believe anything until I have solid scientific evidence to back up what I believe? If my list of beliefs were restricted to what had solid scientific evidence for it, I would not believe anything.
Well, you can take that attitude if you like, but in that case, when you "discuss your ideas", the people with whom you're discussing them are going to say that the big problem with your ideas is that there's no evidence for them. The fact that you know that this is the case will neither obviate the criticism nor make it irrelevant.
Bob: Here's a computer for sale. Do you want to buy it?
Alice: That is in fact an empty cardboard box with the word COMPUTER written on it. There is no computer in it. It is empty.
Bob: It's unnecessary for you to tell me that. I know that! Of course I know that. I am merely here to sell the idea of computers. If I waited until I had a computer before selling the idea, I'd never sell anything. Sheesh. What is it you people want from me?
Alice: Er ... a computer?
Your ideas are boxes with nothing in them. The fact that you know that yourself won't stop people from noticing this, and commenting on it, and explaining that that's why they're not buying them.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 156 of 307 (655791)
03-13-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Granny Magda
03-13-2012 12:13 PM


Re: Fool me once
Now obviously foreveryoung's treatment of this issue is over-the-top and naive, but there is a grain of truth in what he's saying. Once you start to read the Bible with a sceptical mind it starts to fall apart like a house of cards.
I don't think there is a grain of truth in it.
Suppose we bound together in one book everything everyone ever wrote about the history of Rome. Now, I would reject the idea that the founders of Rome were suckled by a she-wolf. On the other hand, I would believe in the existence of Julius Caesar.
The problem with the purported biographies of Jesus is not that they are bound together in the same volume as the stupid myths contained in the book of Genesis. How could that be a problem? If I published a volume consisting of Alice In Wonderland and the Las Vegas phone directory, then the falsehood of the former would have no relevance to the truth of the latter. Putting two different books with different provenances in the same volume does not affect the credibility of either --- it does not exalt the credibility of the less credible book, nor does it impugn the credibility of the more credible book. How could it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Granny Magda, posted 03-13-2012 12:13 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Granny Magda, posted 03-15-2012 3:31 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 157 of 307 (655792)
03-13-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by New Cat's Eye
03-12-2012 4:09 PM


Re: Fool me once
And frankly, its just terrible theology that the Bible is either totally and literally accurate or it has no value whatsoever. Its a false dichotomy and a detriment to christianity.
Quite so. I'm with you on this one, although we may be on opposite sides in other respects.
The Bible is a compilation of writings by different authors, with different degrees of reliability, about the interactions of men with God. This is clearly true.
Given this, a man is an idiot if he uses the inaccuracy of Genesis to cast doubt on the existence of God or the truth of the gospels; and, conversely, a man is an idiot if, contrary to all the evidence, he maintains the literal truth of Genesis to give credence to the existence of God or the truth of the gospels.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 169 of 307 (656183)
03-16-2012 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Granny Magda
03-15-2012 3:31 AM


Re: Fool me once
But no-one ever claimed that both of those volumes were divinely inspired by the same god as part of his plan for humanity.
I will if you like, I hear that there's good money in starting a religion.
Whether or not anyone has, I don't see that it invalidates my point. It is true that claims of divine authorship for the bible are undermined by the fact that Genesis gets stuff wrong; but then I never said otherwise. My point is that it is not true that ordinary claims for the historical accuracy of the gospels are undermined by the same observation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Granny Magda, posted 03-15-2012 3:31 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Granny Magda, posted 03-18-2012 8:43 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(7)
Message 186 of 307 (656473)
03-19-2012 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by foreveryoung
03-19-2012 1:47 AM


Re: Fool me once
Humanists have adopted much of the morality found in the bible.
No as such, no.
I, for example, did not form my sense of morality by going through the Bible and picking out the good bits, nor could I have done so, since in order to pick out the good bits I'd already have to have a sense of morality.
Any resemblance between my morality and that found in the Bible is therefore a consequence of the fact that the people who wrote the Bible were not completely evil and stupid, not that I "adopted" my ideas from them.
You could completely eradicate Christianity today and that morality would remain.
Yay!
The problem would come if anyone ever started to question the basis for that morality. Without the biblical basis, all that is left is utilitarianism.
Well, so long as it has one.
Biblical morality seems awfully utilitarian too. The reason for keeping God's commandments is that if you don't he'll fry you and if you do he'll give you cake or something. That's utilitarian.
Without a genesis that is absolutely, literally true, there is no rational reason to accept the bible as a basis for morality that goes beyond utilitarian purposes.
And with a Genesis that is absolutely, literally true ... well, again, the moral of that little episode seems to be: "You should do as God says or he'll hurt you". That's a utilitarian reason.
As for accepting the bible as a basis for morality, have you stoned any adulterers lately? How about disobedient children? Idolators? People who pick up sticks on Saturday? Aren't you worried that God will cook you on his Rotisserie of Wrath?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Perdition, posted 03-19-2012 5:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 204 of 307 (656520)
03-19-2012 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by foreveryoung
03-19-2012 9:30 AM


My point has been consistent throughout. If you destroy the legitimacy of the bible, you have made Christianity worthless [...] If you are seeking ultimate meaning and purpose in life, or the absolute truth regarding the most important things in life, you have no reason to look for it in the bible if you cannot trust that it is perfectly true throughout.
Surely for Christianity to be worthwhile, only certain things need to be true: such that there is a God, that he prefers good to evil, that he was incarnate in Jesus, and so forth. If the Bible was reliable enough to make these inferences from it, then would it matter if it also contained errors?
As it happens, I'm in the middle of reading Lowen's Lies My Teacher Told Me, about errors, omissions, and distortions in high school history textbooks. Despite these errors, someone reading the textbooks would be correct in inferring that the War of Independence took place, that George Washington existed, and so forth.
Look at it this way. Suppose you die and go to heaven and stand before the great white throne, and God says: "Well done for believing in me and my son, who, as you see, is sitting here at my right hand ... oh, by the way, I gotta tell you, Genesis isn't true, I didn't write it." Would you then exclaim: "Oh, in that case Christianity is worthless!" Of course not. Either it is or it isn't. This cannot depend on the question of whether the whole of the Bible is accurate and to be taken literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by foreveryoung, posted 03-19-2012 9:30 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 03-19-2012 3:58 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 225 of 307 (656835)
03-22-2012 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by foreveryoung
03-22-2012 2:01 AM


I am fucking tired of people being unwilling to discuss ideas without screaming about fucking evidence. You can all go to hell. I am done here. Fuck each and everyone of you save the creationists.
Oh look, an intellectual suicide note.

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 Message 215 by foreveryoung, posted 03-22-2012 2:01 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 247 of 307 (659225)
04-13-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by foreveryoung
04-13-2012 12:08 AM


Re: Inefficient thread
I can't give you evidence because you won't fucking tell me what evidence is. You mutherfuckers like throwing that word around because it is absolutely meaningless. It will remain meaningless until you can define it in a meaningful way that somebody other than your atheistic drones can use.
Are you really claiming that you don't know what "evidence" means?
It's stuff that people can look at or touch or smell or otherwise learn something about, that has a bearing on the truth or falsehood of some hypothesis.
This is not some big secret.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 260 of 307 (659371)
04-15-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by foreveryoung
04-15-2012 3:11 PM


foreveryoung writes:
What you don't understand, you naturally hate. It is a human trait. It is a similar trait to the one where you fear the unknown.
dwise1 writes:
Ah! So if you're not drinking then you are suffering from a mental and/or emotional affliction.
foreveryoung writes:
The other condition is stress and worries and the emotions those bring about. I have been very upset and emotional about some things lately and there is one emotional, self esteem related issue I have dealt with my whole life.
Well, it seems that dwise1 is not so bad at understanding you as you make out. By your own account, you are suffering from an "emotional affliction". I hope it gets better; in the meantime, if you find that participating on these forums aggravates your feelings of stress, and makes you more "upset and emotional" than you would otherwise be, then I think the most friendly advice I can think of is that you should take a break.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by foreveryoung, posted 04-15-2012 3:11 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by foreveryoung, posted 04-15-2012 5:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 268 of 307 (659390)
04-15-2012 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by foreveryoung
04-15-2012 5:28 PM


Well, it appears you understand me just as well as dwise does. I don't have an emotional affliction like in somethings that is clinically diagnosable.
But an emotional affliction as in something which is afflicting you emotionally.
I have the same emotional traumas that every single person on this board does. Some are better at burying their feelings ...
No, not really. I, for example, am feeling a pleasant sense of well-being right now. You are not.
I don't push anything down at all. It is much more healthier. [...] If the feeling does not pass, it does not get dealt with and the mind turns it into other various forms that show up at other times in life, and you have no idea why you are acting or feeling the way you do.
It is popularly believed that "venting" one's anger gets rid of it, as though it were a build-up of steam in an engine, but the evidence from psychological studies is the very opposite: expressing your anger leaves you feeling angrier than you would if you didn't. After all, anger is not really a substance subject to conservation laws, it's a state of mind. I can look up some of the studies for you if you like.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by foreveryoung, posted 04-15-2012 5:28 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by foreveryoung, posted 04-15-2012 7:50 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 274 of 307 (659401)
04-15-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by marc9000
04-15-2012 7:40 PM


Re: posted at the request of foreveryoung.
I'd recommend two books for you to read, you'd then much better understand, (and not take so seriously) what goes on at forums such as these.
Well, either that or he could participate on forums such as these ... oh, wait, he has. So to cleanse his mind from his brief contact with reality he should read books by nutters. Henry Morris, seriously?

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 Message 272 by marc9000, posted 04-15-2012 7:40 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by foreveryoung, posted 04-15-2012 7:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 286 of 307 (659419)
04-15-2012 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by foreveryoung
04-15-2012 7:58 PM


Re: posted at the request of foreveryoung.
This is what I mean by hatred for creationists. This may not be hatred to you, but if I disrespected someone to the respect that adequate has just done, I know it would be because of my hatred for who that person is.
Whereas I merely feel disdain for what Henry Morris has written. Did you never come across the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" in your course of Biblical study?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 289 of 307 (659422)
04-15-2012 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by foreveryoung
04-15-2012 7:50 PM


I can only speak from experience. When i don't get rid of my rage in some way or at least let people know how I feel and what is bothering me, it only means bigger problems down the road.
Who acted as your control group?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by foreveryoung, posted 04-15-2012 7:50 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
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