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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
2ndReign
Junior Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 13
From: Wa
Joined: 05-04-2010


Message 16 of 318 (584728)
10-03-2010 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
10-03-2010 8:03 PM


quote:
With my mouth. Are the following words really meaningless to you?

"Warp drive"
"Vulcan"
"Lightsaber"
"Hobbit"
"Elf"
"Dragon"

Naming things that don't exist? Child's play. Literally, no more difficult than a child's game.


I should have elucidated a bit more so the point I was trying to make would have been understood,but anyway, your point is well. made.

quote:
No, not at all. If you go back and read you'll see that every portion of my definition is a positive term describing what God is, not a negative term describing what he's not.

No you haven't. Me saying that you are human only says that you are not a dog,horse,cow,etc.

Edited by 2ndReign, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 10-03-2010 8:03 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 10-03-2010 8:51 PM 2ndReign has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 17 of 318 (584729)
10-03-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 2ndReign
10-03-2010 8:28 PM


Me saying that you are human only says that you are not a dog,horse,cow,etc.

No, quite the opposite. You could say that I was not a dog, not a horse, not a cow, and you'd have to go on down the list of 100 million different species or so. Saying that I'm "human" is saying what I am; being human is more than not being not human.

I mean by your construction it's simply impossible to define anything "in terms of what it is", since every positive term connotes the absence of that term's opposites. (I mean "positive" in the sense of "making a logically positive claim", not "positive" as in "favorable" or "good.") I can't say you're greedy without saying you're not charitable, but that doesn't mean that the term "greedy" only describes you in terms of what you're not. There's more to being greedy than simply not being not greedy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by 2ndReign, posted 10-03-2010 8:28 PM 2ndReign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by 2ndReign, posted 10-04-2010 12:04 AM crashfrog has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1773
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 18 of 318 (584747)
10-03-2010 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by 2ndReign
10-03-2010 8:01 PM


I said
God = the universe and all that it contains.

2ndReign said

And your definition has just given him a limitation. I assume you are talking about the "known" universe,what about what is beyond that?

Not at all. Known or not I dont see how it matters. The universe = everything that is. The most important element of this definition is that it does not require or imply consciousness. This contradicts the Godly quality of omniscience but allows for omnipresence and omnipotence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by 2ndReign, posted 10-03-2010 8:01 PM 2ndReign has responded

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 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-10-2012 10:52 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 19 of 318 (584751)
10-03-2010 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by 2ndReign
10-03-2010 8:10 PM


Re: God
Hi 2ndReign,

Welcome to EvC.

2ndReign writes:

God knows himself and only God can describe himself.

I agree.

God described Himself to Moses as I AM that I AM.

Existence that exists.

I like to describe Him as everything that ever was, is, or will ever be.

It is a fact such an entity must exist.

It makes no difference what existence is it is everything that ever was, is, or ever will be.

The universe exists, we exist therefore existence had to exist.

There is no mechanism for existence to begin to exist.

I call that existence God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by 2ndReign, posted 10-03-2010 8:10 PM 2ndReign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by 2ndReign, posted 10-04-2010 1:14 AM ICANT has responded

    
2ndReign
Junior Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 13
From: Wa
Joined: 05-04-2010


Message 20 of 318 (584760)
10-04-2010 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
10-03-2010 8:51 PM


To put it simply,to say that you are human is to say that you are not an animal,there no need to be pedantic. So by saying what you are,also says what you are not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 10-03-2010 8:51 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 10-04-2010 12:06 AM 2ndReign has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 318 (584761)
10-04-2010 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by 2ndReign
10-04-2010 12:04 AM


So by saying what you are,also says what you are not.

So, in other words, it's not going to be possible to say what something is without also saying some things that it is not.

So the basis from which you've been rejecting all these definitions, like mine, is spurious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by 2ndReign, posted 10-04-2010 12:04 AM 2ndReign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by 2ndReign, posted 10-04-2010 12:31 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
2ndReign
Junior Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 13
From: Wa
Joined: 05-04-2010


Message 22 of 318 (584762)
10-04-2010 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ProtoTypical
10-03-2010 10:28 PM


And you don't see where you have limited God by saying that he is a big as the universe? Lets go with you and say that yes,he is as big as the universe,still isn't that placing a limitation on how big he is?
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2ndReign
Junior Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 13
From: Wa
Joined: 05-04-2010


Message 23 of 318 (584765)
10-04-2010 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
10-04-2010 12:06 AM


No,it was a genuine conceived and asked question. If anything,this question is more academic than anything else. Each side is dead set to believe how they always have. And you are correct with the formal part of your post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 10-04-2010 12:06 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
2ndReign
Junior Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 13
From: Wa
Joined: 05-04-2010


Message 24 of 318 (584769)
10-04-2010 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
10-03-2010 10:55 PM


Re: God
quote:
Hi 2ndReign,

Welcome to EvC.

God described Himself to Moses as I AM that I AM.

Existence that exists.

I like to describe Him as everything that ever was, is, or will ever be.

It is a fact such an entity must exist.

It makes no difference what existence is it is everything that ever was, is, or ever will be.

The universe exists, we exist therefore existence had to exist.

There is no mechanism for existence to begin to exist.

I call that existence God.

God Bless,


Hello ICANT,and to you and everybody else,thank you for responding to my post.

Yes,that is how the Bible says God described himself. But that's ambiguity,and tautology because it tells us nothing. At least it tell me nothing.

You said:

quote:

I like to describe Him as everything that ever was, is, or will ever be.

Do you believe in "Free Will"? This has to be the ultimate religious dilemma. A God knowing all vs free will,and the dilemma is this: If God knows all then there is only one set of events that can occur. Therefore, there can be no free will because no matter what man chooses, the decision will be the one that God has foreseen,don't you agree?

Deuteronomy 30:19

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:"

Now does it make sense for God to tell Israel to "choose" if there is no free will? And since this implies free will God can't be all knowing.

BTW,you have manage to not limit God in defining him. It's like infinity,it's a quantity without bounds.

Edited by 2ndReign, : No reason given.

Edited by 2ndReign, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 10-03-2010 10:55 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 10-04-2010 12:42 PM 2ndReign has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 25 of 318 (584845)
10-04-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by 2ndReign
10-04-2010 1:14 AM


Re: God
Hi 2ndReign,

2nd Reign writes:

Do you believe in "Free Will"? This has to be the ultimate religious dilemma. A God knowing all vs free will,and the dilemma is this: If God knows all then there is only one set of events that can occur. Therefore, there can be no free will because no matter what man chooses, the decision will be the one that God has foreseen,don't you agree?

You stated in Message 1:

2ndReign writes:

You try to define your love of someone by describing why you love them. You attempt to define the sky by describing its properties,etc. So based on this,can you define God? Some if most would say that God is good, merciful, just, loving, and all powerful. All of these are words to describe him. It doesn't make them untrue, it simply avoided the bigger challenge, and that is defining him.

What does the existence or non-existence of freewill have to do with defining God?

But to answer your question since this is your thread maybe I won't be declared off topic.

First to understand God you must know God. How can you understand something you do not believe to exist?

So open your mind and you may understand what I am going to say.

God is Existence. He is the beginning and the end. God is not limited by time as we are.

God stands at the beginning and views the end at the same time.

God can still see the man He formed from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being and placed in the garden. He also sees his disobedience. He sees your birth, and death. He sees and knows every decision you have ever made or will make during your stay here on earth.

He knows what your final fate will be.

But at all times you have the freedom to accept what He has offered in the form of a free full pardon and eternal life with Him.

You control that decision and all other decisions you make with no control by Him. He does not control your decisions even though He knows what they are.

He does already know what that decision is because He sees your entire life at the same time.

Yes I know that is preposterous. How could someone see the beginning and the end at the same time?

Well we are not talking about someone, we are talking about God eternal existence. All knowledge is included in the "everything" I mentioned in my definition of God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by 2ndReign, posted 10-04-2010 1:14 AM 2ndReign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by 2ndReign, posted 10-05-2010 7:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
2ndReign
Junior Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 13
From: Wa
Joined: 05-04-2010


Message 26 of 318 (585087)
10-05-2010 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ICANT
10-04-2010 12:42 PM


Re: God
Hello ICANT.

MY fault,I thought you said that God was all knowing. I re-read your post and saw that this was not the case. You're right, Free Will has nothing to do with our topic.


This message is a reply to:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 426 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 27 of 318 (657808)
03-30-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 2ndReign
10-03-2010 1:24 AM


The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see Gods killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 2ndReign, posted 10-03-2010 1:24 AM 2ndReign has not yet responded

    
Great.Cthulhu
Junior Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 04-16-2012


(1)
Message 28 of 318 (659454)
04-16-2012 2:06 AM


quote:
I don't believe in God personally but for the sake of discussion, I will concede that he does exist for the simple fact how can there be any kind of in-depth discussion on God if we are still arguing weather God exists or not.

Faith v Fact

The facts tell me that Evolution is verifiable, testable, and proven true. That doesn't require Faith on my part.

But I have Faith that God exists, and no, I don't have a problem with accepting Science and yet still believing in God. Call it a dual blind spot, LOL.


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 29 of 318 (659464)
04-16-2012 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 2ndReign
10-03-2010 1:24 AM


Presuppositions for the sake of discussion
Crashfrog writes:

The greatest fault with religion/theology is that it doesn't even bother to establish the existence of the thing it claims to study, it just skips ahead to presuming the qualities of that entity. I think the conversation should remain at the level of "does God exist or not" until that issue is settled.

The issue is settled based on ones individual beliefs. What makes you think that a human could establish the existence of God? We simply do not have that power. God either exists or He(She,It) doesn't...irregardless of our attempts to define such a concept or the absence thereof. Since we don't know either way, the premise of a topic such as this one is that God does exist. Go ahead, make one up if you cant conceive of It. Then you can join the conversation.

Personally, I would like to believe that God exists, that God is alone the only entity that has the knowledge of the universe (or multi-verses) at His disposal, or in His database or whatever. Of course I believe that good is more powerful than evil and that God is good.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 2ndReign, posted 10-03-2010 1:24 AM 2ndReign has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 30 of 318 (659544)
04-16-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 2ndReign
10-03-2010 1:24 AM


Defining "god"
I'll have a go at defining "god".

The term god refers to a supernatural conscious being that is responsible for the creation or overseeing of some aspect of reality. Something like the following dictionary definition:

1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine

Thus things like Thor and Apollo readily qualify as gods. As does the more deistic and ambiguous notion of a supernatural "creator of all that is seen and unseen".

The only real difference between the largely abandoned gods and those that more sophisticated theists advocate these days is the degree of ambiguity attached to the concept in question.


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 Message 1 by 2ndReign, posted 10-03-2010 1:24 AM 2ndReign has not yet responded

  
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