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Author Topic:   radical liberals (aka liberal commies) vs ultra conservatives (aka nutjobs)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 136 of 300 (659373)
04-15-2012 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
04-15-2012 4:29 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Of course it does.
It is the US Declaration of Independence that made the claim that there were inalienable rights, a product of a particular culture.
And what I have consistently said is that governments are one of the sources that grant rights; in fact I have said the three main sources are states (governments), societies and cultures.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2012 4:29 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2012 5:39 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 300 (659378)
04-15-2012 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
04-15-2012 4:41 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Of course it does.
What does? I have no idea what "it" refers to.
And what I have consistently said is that governments are one of the sources that grant rights; in fact I have said the three main sources are states (governments), societies and cultures.
No, you have not been consistent.
I have pointed out your inconsistencies in several posts. Your description of how the rights described in the bill of rights are held by US citizens is both historically and operationally inaccurate. Your error has led you to make several other errors. The most significant error is your position that rights that are not respected by the government, or any other single one of the possible sources, do not exist.
I have agreed with your statement regarding the three sources of government because the terms "societies" and "cultures" are so vague as encompass just about anything, including natural rights.
If there is anything in this post that is unclear, or if you need me to quote your previous erroneous statements, just ask.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 04-15-2012 4:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 04-15-2012 5:49 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 300 (659381)
04-15-2012 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by NoNukes
04-15-2012 5:39 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
It refers to your past posts that certainly seem to support my position.
Rights only exist that are recognized and created by one of the sources that grant rights; in fact I have said the three main sources are states (governments), societies and cultures.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2012 5:39 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 139 of 300 (659523)
04-16-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
04-15-2012 9:40 AM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Reality shows that rights are granted through a consensus by a government within a State, society, culture.
Reality shows that governments make rules that they expect citizens to follow. This can occur through an autocracy, oligarchy, or a representative democarcy, to name a few. The government creates legal rights. These are not the same as natural rights. Whether or not natural rights exist is an argument long in the making, but I think it is important to point out that they are not the same as legal rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 04-15-2012 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 1:11 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 300 (659525)
04-16-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Taq
04-16-2012 1:05 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Yes, you do keep claiming that there is some difference, but so far I see no evidence of any inalienable "natural or human rights" that exist outside of those granted by consensus of a State, society or culture.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 1:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 1:19 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 141 of 300 (659528)
04-16-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
04-16-2012 1:11 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Yes, you do keep claiming that there is some difference, but so far I see no evidence of any inalienable "natural or human rights" that exist outside of those granted by consensus of a State, society or culture.
My evidence is the that you fear for your life, you don't like your stuff stolen, and you don't want to be locked up in prison for no good reason. These are universal human emotions. This is what human rights are based on. They are intrinsic to the human condition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 1:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 1:26 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 300 (659530)
04-16-2012 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Taq
04-16-2012 1:19 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Sorry but again just assertion and conflation.
Yes they are normal human emotions; so are fear, love, hunger, pain ...
Those are not rights.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 1:19 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 2:27 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 143 of 300 (659535)
04-16-2012 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
04-16-2012 1:26 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Sorry but again just assertion and conflation.
Yes they are normal human emotions; so are fear, love, hunger, pain ...
Those are not rights.
They are not bare assertions. They are very real emotions, ones that I think I am accurately portraying. We have empathy. We know what causes us pain and fear, therefore we know which actions will cause pain and fear in others. This knowledge forms the foundation of natural rights.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 1:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 3:09 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 300 (659546)
04-16-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Taq
04-16-2012 2:27 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
They are emotions.
The assertion is that there are "natural rights".
Where is there any evidence that there are any "natural rights?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 2:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 3:36 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 145 of 300 (659549)
04-16-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
04-16-2012 3:09 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
They are emotions.
The assertion is that there are "natural rights".
Where is there any evidence that there are any "natural rights?"
Emotions and empathy are the evidence. You know what causes fear in yourself, therefore you know what causes fear in others. Therefore, you should not do those things to other people. You fear death. You also know that others fear death, and the actions that cause them to fear death. Therefore, you should not do those things. The natural right is the right to not have others harm you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 3:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 3:50 PM Taq has replied
 Message 147 by Panda, posted 04-16-2012 5:39 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 146 of 300 (659551)
04-16-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Taq
04-16-2012 3:36 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
You keep repeating the same thing but never show any connection between desires and rights or the existence of any rights.
Emotion is not synonymous with "right".
Empathy is not synonymous with "right".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 3:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 04-17-2012 11:54 AM jar has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 147 of 300 (659562)
04-16-2012 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Taq
04-16-2012 3:36 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:
You fear death. You also know that others fear death, and the actions that cause them to fear death. Therefore, you should not do those things.
One word: Dignitas.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Taq, posted 04-16-2012 3:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Taq, posted 04-17-2012 11:55 AM Panda has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 148 of 300 (659612)
04-17-2012 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by jar
04-16-2012 3:50 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
You keep repeating the same thing but never show any connection between desires and rights or the existence of any rights.
It is a conclusion that follows from the premises:
P1: You fear death.
P2: Fear is a very, very negative experience. You don't want to experience fear of death.
P3: Empathy allows you to know that others fear death in the same way.
P4: You are able to determine which of your actions creates the same negative experience in others.
C: You ought not to cause fear of death in others since it is something that you don't want to experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 04-16-2012 3:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 04-17-2012 12:03 PM Taq has replied
 Message 164 by caffeine, posted 04-18-2012 3:28 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 149 of 300 (659613)
04-17-2012 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Panda
04-16-2012 5:39 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
One word: Dignitas.
Do you want to die?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Panda, posted 04-16-2012 5:39 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Panda, posted 04-17-2012 8:47 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 300 (659614)
04-17-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
04-17-2012 11:54 AM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Again, where are there any inalienable rights in what you posted?
By definition something that "ought to be" does not exist.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 04-17-2012 11:54 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Taq, posted 04-17-2012 12:26 PM jar has replied

  
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