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Author Topic:   How do "novel" features evolve?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 46 of 314 (659796)
04-18-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by intellen
04-18-2012 8:15 AM


Re: what is novel?
You have no idea what the theory of evolution is.
You are therefore incompetent to discuss it.
I know I already said that in post #37, but it seemed worth saying again. 'Cos of being so profoundly true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by intellen, posted 04-18-2012 8:15 AM intellen has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4355 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 47 of 314 (659813)
04-18-2012 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
04-18-2012 9:09 AM


Re: how populations evolve
TO: Dr. Adequate, Caffeine, RAZD
Once again, I will post this PREMISE 1:
quote:
The process of evolution involves the change in the frequency distribution and composition
of hereditary traits within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to
ecological challenges and opportunities.
Let us call "doggy1" as the common ancestor of the dog that has webbed feet, and "doggy2" the dogs that
received the trait of "webbed feet", OK?
ToE said that "population" evolves, OK, I got it.
Now,
RAZD said that "the ecological challenges and opportunities change when the environment changes...", that means,
the ocean or seas had affected doggy1 (that has no webbed feet)in its environment; doggy1 could not escape from that harsh
environment or new ecological challenges. So in response, doggy1 evolved and got a new trait, i.e., the webbed feet, and
passed that trait to doggy2.
The logical questions will be:
1. When the new environment changes, did doggy1 did not go
to another place for safety? Did the new ecological challenges block doggy1's way of escape, say
doggy1 did not go to mountain or higher ground?
2. If doggy1 could not make it to higher ground, then, how many times should doggy1
swim so that they could survive and get the new trait of "webbed feet"
and could pass that to doggy2?
PLEASE, remember that: random mutation will not kick in IF there is no
new ecological challenges. That is the post of RAZD and caffeine.
3. So, where did doggy1 live and got its "new trait, the webbed feet"? Near Pacific Ocean
or Atlantic Ocean?

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 04-18-2012 9:09 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by DrJones*, posted 04-18-2012 9:50 PM intellen has replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 04-18-2012 10:16 PM intellen has replied
 Message 54 by dwise1, posted 04-19-2012 12:57 AM intellen has not replied
 Message 55 by frako, posted 04-19-2012 4:44 AM intellen has not replied
 Message 56 by Pressie, posted 04-19-2012 4:48 AM intellen has not replied
 Message 57 by caffeine, posted 04-19-2012 5:10 AM intellen has not replied
 Message 62 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2012 7:52 AM intellen has replied
 Message 63 by Taq, posted 04-19-2012 11:00 AM intellen has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 48 of 314 (659814)
04-18-2012 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:38 PM


Re: how populations evolve
So in response, doggy1 evolved and got a new trait, i.e., the webbed feet, and passed that trait to doggy2.
No you're still not understanding. Mutations do not happen after birth.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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intellen
Member (Idle past 4355 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 49 of 314 (659815)
04-18-2012 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by DrJones*
04-18-2012 9:50 PM


Re: how populations evolve
So, how can you explain this?
"The process of evolution involves the change in the frequency distribution and composition
of hereditary traits within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to
ecological challenges and opportunities."
OR
"In response to
ecological challenges and opportunities, the process of evolution involves the change in the frequency distribution and composition
of hereditary traits within breeding populations from generation to generation."??

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by DrJones*, posted 04-18-2012 9:50 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by subbie, posted 04-18-2012 10:01 PM intellen has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 50 of 314 (659816)
04-18-2012 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:54 PM


Re: how populations evolve
The key portion in both quotes is "from generation to generation." The changes do not take place in individual organisms after they are born. The changes are between one generation and the next.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(9)
Message 51 of 314 (659817)
04-18-2012 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:38 PM


Re: how populations evolve
Let me give this a try.
There is a population of doggies.
The doggies have puppies.
A few of the puppies are not perfect copies.
Those puppies have webbed feet.
The other puppies think they look funny and call them names.
The environment changes; water levels rise.
The puppies with webbed feet were happy; they played and swam and all hung out together while they laughed at the puppies without webbed feet that couldn't swim real fast all the way from here to there and all the way back again.
The puppies without webbed feet moved to higher ground and they played chase and catch the tail and run around the tree and laughed at the puppies with webbed feet.
Soon there were two different populations, the clean foot puppies and the web foot puppies.
And that is how evolution works.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by intellen, posted 04-18-2012 9:38 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 9:53 PM jar has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 52 of 314 (659818)
04-18-2012 10:17 PM


(1) The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities
Changes in the composition of traits in breeding populations cannot create new structures where none existed before. It cannot change keratin into collagen no matter how many different traits occur in a population.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2012 11:35 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 53 of 314 (659819)
04-18-2012 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by foreveryoung
04-18-2012 10:17 PM


Changes in the composition of traits in breeding populations cannot create new structures where none existed before.
Structures are traits.

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 54 of 314 (659823)
04-19-2012 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:38 PM


Re: how populations evolve
PLEASE, remember that: random mutation will not kick in IF there is no new ecological challenges.
Huh????
That is the second most completely nonsensical creationist statement that I have ever seen. Please, please, please stop and learn something about evolution before you post more such nonsense!
That is the post of RAZD and caffeine.
I just search for random mutation on each page of this topic and could find nothing even closely resembling your statement above except for this message of yours that I am replying to right now. You are the only source we know of for that nonsense.
If you wish to insist that either or both RAZD and caffeine made that statement, then please cite the exact message in which they are supposed to have made that statement and quote them exactly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by intellen, posted 04-18-2012 9:38 PM intellen has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 55 of 314 (659833)
04-19-2012 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:38 PM


Re: how populations evolve
"Here is what happened" to the doggy's
Once uppon a time on an island a doggy with webbed feat was borne had the doggy ben borne someplace else his trait of webbed feat would not be passed on with a grate enough frequency to become dominant it is even possible the trait would vanish from the population because webbed foot doggies cant run as fast. but on this little island food was running low and our webbed foot doggy could fish. Because our webbed foot doggy could fish he was not starving and he grew up to be big and strong and soon he became Pack Leader, as pack leader he could procreate with all the other females and each gave birth to 50% doggies with webbed feat. So now the number of webbed feat doggies in the population has gone way up. After numerous breeding cycles our fist webbed feat doggy could no longer be pack leader because he was too old and one of his sons took charge because no none webbed foot doggy could because they could not eat enough to be as big and strong as them. As this process of natural selection went on soon every doggy on the island had webbed feat. Then a doggy was borne to one of them who could hold his breath 2x as long as the other doggies enabling him to catch even more food with fare less effort ........
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by intellen, posted 04-18-2012 9:38 PM intellen has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 56 of 314 (659834)
04-19-2012 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:38 PM


Re: how populations evolve
I more or less agree with dwise1 here.
dwise1 writes:
That is the second most completely nonsensical creationist statement that I have ever seen. Please, please, please stop and learn something about evolution before you post more such nonsense!
To me your statement is not only nonsensical, it is a misrepresentation of everything that was discussed here.
Your quote:
quote:
PLEASE, remember that: random mutation will not kick in IF there is no new ecological challenges. That is the post of RAZD and caffeine.
  —intellen
Nobody has said that at all in this thread.
The message on this subject I got from the knowledgable people participating here is that: random mutations will happen at reproduction (this includes some stages of development in the womb), regardless whether there are ecological challenges or not.
Your evaluation of what was said so far is pretty silly.
Edited by Pressie, : Changed a few sentences.
Edited by Pressie, : Changed more sentences
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(3)
Message 57 of 314 (659835)
04-19-2012 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by intellen
04-18-2012 9:38 PM


Re: how populations evolve
PLEASE, remember that: random mutation will not kick in IF there is no
new ecological challenges. That is the post of RAZD and caffeine.
You're misunderstanding. Mutations do no happen in response to the environment.
Mutations happen all the time. Whatever is going on in the environment, every single organism ever born has many mutations.
Most mutations have no noticeable effect. Some do. Some of these effects are harmful. Some are good.
And this is where the environment comes in. Whether a trait is harmful or good depends on the environment.
Let's take a real world example. These are guppies (Poecilia reticulata), a very popular aquarium fish because you can breed them in all sorts of pretty colours. The plain one of the left is a female. The pretty coloured one on the right is a male.
Now, let's say a guppy is born with a mutation that makes him brighter and more colourful. This isn't in response to the environment - it's just an error in copying his parent's genes that happened before he was born.
This bright colourful guppy stands out for a mile, and he is noticed very quickly by a big hungry fish, and becomes lunch. He doesn't pass on his bright colourful genes. His mutation was bad, and the environment, in the form of a big hungry fish, determined this.
Now, let's imagine that another guppy has been born with a very similar mutation, but he is born in a different place. He's born in a quiet little stream somewhere, where there aren't any big fish to eat him. This bright, colourful guppy grows to be big and strong, and all the lady guppies think his bold, bright colours make him look like a big hunk of gupy man flesh. This guppy becomes a player, sleeping around with all the lady guppies he can get his fins on. He leaves a trail of baby guppies all over the stream, meaning that the next generation are full of bright, colourful guppies like him. In this environment, his mutation was a good thing.
The environment didn't cause either mutation. The mutations just happened. It's just that whether or not the mutation turns out to be a good thing and get passed on, depends on the environment it appears in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by intellen, posted 04-18-2012 9:38 PM intellen has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 58 of 314 (659836)
04-19-2012 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by intellen
04-18-2012 8:15 AM


Re: what is novel?
How can you have been here a year, nearly and not yet understand one of the core concepts of the whole EvC debate?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

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 Message 40 by intellen, posted 04-18-2012 8:15 AM intellen has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


(1)
Message 59 of 314 (659837)
04-19-2012 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by frako
04-19-2012 4:44 AM


Dog breeds are not the product of natural selection.
See, this is the danger of just so stories. While your narrative is very neat and all it bears no relation to reality. These sort of dog breeds didn't evolve in wild packs on islands through natural selection. They evolved by artificial selection on domesticated dogs through controlled breeding in line with what traits humans considered to be valuable, regardless of whether they were traits that would constitute fitness in a natural environment.
Intellen has already demonstrated a stunningly flawed grasp of evolution. He doesn't need us to tell him even more things that are wrong.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by frako, posted 04-19-2012 4:44 AM frako has replied

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 60 of 314 (659838)
04-19-2012 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Wounded King
04-19-2012 6:10 AM


Re: Dog breeds are not the product of natural selection.
But it does convey a how evolution actually works, and since you all cant explain to him how evolution works in those fancy book learning words, i tried a different approach.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

This message is a reply to:
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