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Author Topic:   How do "novel" features evolve?
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 106 of 314 (659958)
04-19-2012 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by intellen
04-19-2012 10:08 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
Why are you talking about mutation?
Cause mutation is a vital part of evolution
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 10:08 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:24 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 107 of 314 (659959)
04-19-2012 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
04-19-2012 10:58 PM


Re: Slower steps
jar writes:
There is a population of doggies.
Are you with me that far?
Do not take it for granted that he knows what a population is.
Ask for proof.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 04-19-2012 10:58 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 108 of 314 (659960)
04-19-2012 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by intellen
04-19-2012 10:08 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
intellen writes:
I am talking about natural selection of evolution, not mutation. Why are you talking about mutation?
quote:
Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution. Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
intellen writes:
It is not I that is very confused.
Yes it is.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 10:08 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:23 PM Panda has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 109 of 314 (659961)
04-19-2012 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by intellen
04-19-2012 10:14 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
If there are ecological challenges, why the dogs for example could not just go to another place to live? Why evolve?
Other niches are already filled with species adapted to them.
For the dogs to move they would have to out-compete other species in areas that those other species are already well-adapted to, and adapt to those other environments at the same time.
Not as easy as it looks.
But this is off topic. You need to address some of the criticisms of your posts. If I may mix metaphors, you're trailing about 99-0 in the 4th quarter and sinking fast.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 10:14 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 110 of 314 (659964)
04-19-2012 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Coyote
04-19-2012 11:11 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
Other niches are already filled with species adapted to them.
For the dogs to move they would have to out-compete other species in areas that those other species are already well-adapted to, and adapt to those other environments at the same time.
Not as easy as it looks.
But this is off topic. You need to address some of the criticisms of your posts. If I may mix metaphors, you're trailing about 99-0 in the 4th quarter and sinking fast.
But they move or fight to death, that is we see in the jungle. I mean, nat selec cannot part of evolution. That means, ecological challenges cannot be the caused of the new species, it ToE is right. That is impossible. But why RAZD used that in his premise 1 in OP?
I am talking nat selec since RAZD had touched it in his premise1 in OP.
Now, we can talk mutation or anything you want. No problem.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Coyote, posted 04-19-2012 11:11 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Coyote, posted 04-19-2012 11:26 PM intellen has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 111 of 314 (659965)
04-19-2012 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Panda
04-19-2012 11:08 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
PANDA, I knew since ToE had been claming that. So, we can switch to mutation, right?
Again, nat selec is only for changes, aka, adaptation, not for origin of new species, aka, evolution of new species.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Panda, posted 04-19-2012 11:08 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Panda, posted 04-20-2012 5:16 AM intellen has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 112 of 314 (659966)
04-19-2012 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by DrJones*
04-19-2012 10:58 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
But I am talking about nat selec in RAZD's OP. Then, let us talk about mutation.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by DrJones*, posted 04-19-2012 10:58 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 113 of 314 (659967)
04-19-2012 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by RAZD
04-19-2012 4:33 PM


Re: slightly off topic ... but we can redirect
This is making an unevidenced, unsupported statement that purports to delineate a limitation to evolution.
I understand that that is the way you perceive what I stated, but it is a mischaracterization of my intentions. It may be unevidenced and unsupported, but that is irrelevant to the purpose of my post. It is my opinion that is based on my analyses of what I understand evolution to be. It is an example my mind came up with that seems logical in its presentation. The situation I came up with does seem improbable for random mutation and natural selection to produce. I gave the reasons for its improbability. Can you point out the flaws in my logic instead of saying it is unevidenced and unsupported? Does a thought experiment have to have evidence? As for support, if the conclusion is supported by the underlying reasoning, it has support. If you are going to claim it is unsupported, you are going to have to show how the reasoning is faulty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 04-19-2012 4:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2012 8:19 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 114 of 314 (659968)
04-19-2012 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
04-19-2012 10:58 PM


Re: Slower steps
TO JAR, yeah...I got it..
then...?

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 04-19-2012 10:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 04-20-2012 9:27 AM intellen has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 115 of 314 (659970)
04-19-2012 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by intellen
04-19-2012 10:03 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
Yeah, there are thousands of another species, that means, natural selection cannot be the caused of the origin of the new species, therefore, evolution is wrong.
You need to explain why you think natural selection cannot result in the creation of new species instead of simply saying so.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 10:03 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:45 PM subbie has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 116 of 314 (659971)
04-19-2012 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by intellen
04-19-2012 11:21 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
But they move or fight to death, that is we see in the jungle. I mean, nat selec cannot part of evolution. That means, ecological challenges cannot be the caused of the new species, it ToE is right. That is impossible.
Your premise and conclusions are entirely wrong, as has been explained to you by numerous posters.
(Note my signature, below.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:21 PM intellen has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 117 of 314 (659972)
04-19-2012 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by subbie
04-19-2012 11:26 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
Nat selec cannot be the caused of evolution or new species is very simple: organisms fight to live or die without evolving, just like dogs in our example.
They adapt but they don't evolve.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by subbie, posted 04-19-2012 11:26 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by subbie, posted 04-20-2012 12:04 AM intellen has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 118 of 314 (659974)
04-20-2012 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by intellen
04-19-2012 11:45 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
It's quite clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
First, we've told you countless times, organisms don't evolve, populations do. This is not simply a matter of semantics. This is basic. If you don't understand this fact, and I believe you do not, you will never understand anything.
Second, yes, sometimes a population can move in response to environmental changes. But sometimes the population evolves. If you believe this is not so, you need to explain why.
Third, evolution is a form of adaptation.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:45 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by intellen, posted 04-20-2012 12:39 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 119 of 314 (659975)
04-20-2012 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by subbie
04-20-2012 12:04 AM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
Subbie = It's quite clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
First, we've told you countless times, organisms don't evolve, populations do. This is not simply a matter of semantics. This is basic. If you don't understand this fact, and I believe you do not, you will never understand anything.
Second, yes, sometimes a population can move in response to environmental changes. But sometimes the population evolves. If you believe this is not so, you need to explain why.
1. I knew that accdg to ToE, individual organisms don't evolve but population BUT that is an assertion and an unsupported claim since as I had been saying here that population cannot evolve since they move to a place in where safety is the first concern, just like the dog in our example here with webbed feet. Unless you show that evolution kicks in, then, that is a different story.
2. Thus, both population and individual can only adapt but not evolve. Therefore, ToE is wrong.
Edited by intellen, : No reason given.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by subbie, posted 04-20-2012 12:04 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Jefferinoopolis, posted 04-20-2012 10:21 AM intellen has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 120 of 314 (659976)
04-20-2012 1:00 AM


Hi guys
Thanks for your patience in explaining so many things on here. I really learned a lot. It will take me quite a few weeks to digest all this new information (to me).
Multiple allelles explained in a way that is easily understandable. So simple when you think about it. It all makes sense. What a wonderful world.
However, I know it must be very frustrating to convey and try to explain something about our world to somebody with the mentality of a loaf of bread.
Be assured that not all of us are like that and really appreciate all the knowledge passed on so freely here!
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by foreveryoung, posted 04-20-2012 1:08 AM Pressie has replied

  
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