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The problem is that the laws of logic are presupposed before they are proven. In order to prove the laws of logic, you must use logic. In an atheistic world, that is a world apart from God, this is not allowed since you are violating the laws of logic (using a circular argument or begging the question).
Well, we could just presuppose logic, that would cut out the middle man of having to presuppose God first in order to then presuppose logic.
In any case, you can't presuppose God first, as this presupposition comes only as a result of logic (i.e. the idea that you need a justification for logic is in itself a logical statement).
So you need logic first in order to even realize you even need to presuppose God. Logic always comes first.
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The atheist must make many more presuppositions in order to explain similar concepts (laws of logic and laws of morality to name just a few).
The universe exists, and is made of matter, properties of matter produce both evolution, and evolution produces logic and morality.
Therefore we need only presuppose the existence of the universe, which is rather an easy pre-supposition to support.
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They must assume that morality is a convention within societies, that matter will continue to behave uniformaly, that God does not exist, etc.
But atheists don't actually suppose any of these things except for the last one, and usually the last is usually a claim that YOUR God as you describe him can not exist, not that no God's whatsoever can.
Atheists tend to make the conclusion that the Christian God does not exist because the description of him is contradictory and highly improbable.
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..it still does not disprove creationism. So if we stack the cards in your favor, you are still left with a belief system that is unproven and still inconsistent with the realities which we experience and see on a daily basis.
Uh.. well if the earth is very old, it certainly contradicts the literalist interpretation of the Bible, and I am not aware of any inconsistencies with Evolution that I experience on a daily basis.
However, I don't see any God's or angels on a daily basis, so I'd say that these contradict my experience.
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(morality,love,hate,cocepts of evil,...)
These are all well known products of evolution. And in fact evolution can explain "why" these are what they are, and not just attribute them to the ineffable whim of an imaginary anthropomorphic super being. I would say that sort of explanation is superior.
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What this means is that unfortunately, the hallmark argument for atheism (at least on this formum) is lacking in substance.
Hmmm.. all of these aspects of life are explained via evolution. So why exactly should we appeal to the supernatural?
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This is merely thrashing at the wind. While I would agree that some creationists behave in this manner, I would also argue that many atheists do the same.
Easy to say. But the devil is in the details, as they say.
Prove it.
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We all come to the table with our own set of pre-suppositions, mine is the existence of God, yours is (I think) the existence of logic.
Yours is also in the existence of logic, otherwise you would never have been able to conclude there was a God. You require the belief in the correct functioning of your own mind first, in all matters of thought.
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I maintain that the existence of logic can not make sense in a world apart from God, since the atheistic approach can not account for universal,invariant,abstract entities.
See my former post. Just because you think this is so does not mean that it is.
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This argument by the way has been used by many philosophers throughout history -I am not claiming these concepts to have been orinially presented by myself.
Many fallacious arguments have been put forth throughout history to support a wide variety of claims.
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the existence of the laws of morality provide evidence that a God does exist.
Not at all. What use would God, an eternal immortal, all powerful sexless being have for rules about murder, death, and sex?
Theists claim that morality is the random whim of God, while science actually has genuine explanations as to why morality exists, and why some moral taboos and intuitive feelings are universally strong.
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Fulfilled prophecies suggest that the bible is the Word of God.
Fulfilled prophecies is proof that writings of Nostradamus is the Word of God then too. Each post-facto interpretation of a supposed prophecy fulfilled in the Bible is exactly the same as those supposedly fulfilled by Nostradamus.
Niether nostradamus nor the Bible seem to be able to make specific predictions "in advance". What does this tell you? That humans are good at reinterpreting ambiguous fuzzy "prophecies" after the fact, that's all.
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The rapid growth of Christianity amid tremendous persecution suggest some type of divine intervention. the millions of people who have had religios experiences, the theology that is taught makes sense both intelectually as well as spiritualy, the mere existence of Christianity today provides evidence,
No, actually this would be better evidence for the Islam, not Christianity.
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the tremendous amount of order we see within the universe testifies to the existence of a God, I can go on.
Why? The universe does not look particularly ordered to me. In fact, its full of diseaase, random disasters, chaos, etc. Is this proof of order?
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