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Author Topic:   Is God good?
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 722 (660711)
04-28-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
04-28-2012 5:22 PM


Re: Questioning
Phat writes:
You should question why some humans cant imagine an intelligence greater than our own feeble species and why its silly to imagine such an authority?
I would question why you equate intelligence with authority - and what either of them has to do with goodness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 04-28-2012 5:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 04-28-2012 5:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 722 (660714)
04-28-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
04-28-2012 5:34 PM


Re: Questioning
"Responsible" is the key word there. The Biblical God comes across as a kind of deadbeat dad who can only be counted on to put His own interests first. We have to be responsible because He isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 04-28-2012 5:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 722 (682824)
12-05-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jaywill
12-05-2012 3:09 PM


jaywill writes:
At least with the God of the Bible there is a concluding and final judgment according to an infallible record of one's deeds. With the evolutionary system all the evil doers will only melt peacefully into the dust of the ground.
In this life, the innocent suffer while the evil live in luxury. An "ultimate accounting" in a hypothetical afterlife is a copout and inherently evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:09 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 220 of 722 (683105)
12-07-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jaywill
12-05-2012 3:57 PM


jaywill writes:
ringo writes:
In this life, the innocent suffer while the evil live in luxury. An "ultimate accounting" in a hypothetical afterlife is a copout and inherently evil.
That's YOUR gamble. That it is hypothetical.
You're missing the point. Whether or not my gamble pays off is irrelevant to the topic. My point, which is on topic, is that the hypothesis of an afterlife in which accounts are settled is evil in itself. It's like raping somebody and saying, "Don't worry, I'll pay you next Tuesday." A god who would set up such a system is evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2012 3:57 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Rahvin, posted 12-07-2012 2:07 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2012 3:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 225 of 722 (683117)
12-07-2012 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
12-07-2012 3:15 PM


jaywill writes:
Now, if you say "Well, I say it is hypothetical because I don't believe any proof of Christ's resurrection is given."
You're still missing the point. It is the hypothesis itself, the system,"God's plan" that is inherently evil. Itmakes no difference whether I believe it's true or not. Your belief is in an evil system, based on your definition of evil.
He may SAY many things. The record of what he DID is with God and is infallible.
We're not talking about what "he" said or did. We're talking about what God says He will do, according to your belief. What you say God will do, punish people after death while literally letting them get away with murder in life, is evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2012 3:15 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2012 4:33 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 546 of 722 (684697)
12-18-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


jaywill writes:
Also of note is that modern slave trade went exactly against Paul's teaching (based on OT) that KIDNAPPING was a sin....
Kidnapping slaves was outlawed before owning slaves was abolished. The Bible seems to have little to say against owning slaves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 4:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 578 of 722 (684924)
12-19-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by jaywill
12-18-2012 4:29 PM


jaywill writes:
The Levitical laws seem to me to lean towards an overall improvement of a social practice.
Yes. That certainly throws absolute right and wrong out the window. The god of the Levites seems to be content with itsy-bitsy improvements instead of outright repentence. That's why the commandment says, "Thou shalt not kill as many people as thou did last week."
jaywill writes:
To our modern senses the word "slavery" is very negatively charged.
No kidding.
jaywill writes:
Indentured servitude could be a way of escaping starvation or to repay depts.
Another way of preventing starvation is by feeding people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 4:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2012 12:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 582 of 722 (684940)
12-19-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by jaywill
12-19-2012 12:07 PM


jaywill writes:
Man needs some leading progressively to the concept of grace in the Savior Christ.
Maybe you man that mean needs some leading to accept God's grace. Grace would be meaningless if you needed enlightenment to obtain it.
jaywill writes:
In the progressive revelation of the Bible God has to school the man. Man has destroyed the relationship but he cannot fix it. God has to come in to fix it.
You see, you keep describing your own theology in terms that expose it as evil. What you're describing is like a fireman putting out a fire a little bit at a time or a doctor curing a disease a little bit at a time. Their inability to prevent suffering all at once should not be projected onto an omnipotent God. And blaming the victim is, again, downright evil.
jaywill writes:
All the atoning offerings are related to repentence.
What does atonement have to do with repentence? To repent, all you have to do is stop.
jaywill writes:
War was an inevitable possibility.
I didn't say a word about war. I said that your idea of stopping slavery a little bit at a time is the same as murdering a few less people than you did last week.
jaywill writes:
This does not garuantee ALL slave master's were just.
Nor do all drunk drivers kill people. Yet we do ban all drunk driving because of the potential danger. We hope to prevent deaths. But your "good" god with his "absolute justice" is content to have the drivers a little less drunk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2012 12:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2012 1:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 611 of 722 (685085)
12-20-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 583 by jaywill
12-19-2012 1:12 PM


jaywill writes:
I don't follow this. "Grace would be meaningless if you needed enightenment to obtain it."
Why?
Grace is like a present under the Christmas tree with your name on it. You have to accept it - i.e. open it - to derive any value from it but you don't need to understand it. It might turn out to be an electronic gadget that you couldn't operate to save your life but it's still yours. You might appreciate it more if you acquire a jaywill-like understanding of it but you can't own it any more than you already do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2012 1:12 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by jaywill, posted 12-21-2012 8:33 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 614 of 722 (685244)
12-21-2012 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by jaywill
12-21-2012 8:33 AM


jaywill writes:
Saul of Tarsus had to be knocked down to the ground with a light from heaven and a supernatural voice in order to bring him into an understanding of the grace of God. Latter a physical ailment troubled Paul very sorely. Paul prayed three times that God would have it removed. The answer came to enlighten him that Christ's GRACE was sufficient for him.
God said that grace was all he was getting - i.e. he wasn't going to be healed.
jaywill writes:
Paul had to learn about how GRACE operated in his life.
What he had to learn was that grace was the only gift from God that he could count on. All other things he was expected to endure or fix on his own.
The only thing to be learned about grace is its limitations. The present under the tree is yours for the taking but you have to get your own Christmas dinner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by jaywill, posted 12-21-2012 8:33 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 8:41 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 619 of 722 (685385)
12-22-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by jaywill
12-22-2012 8:41 AM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:
Its too bad that you don't realize like Paul what a treasure
grace was.
It's true that I don't consider, "I could kill you but I won't," a treasure. I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 8:41 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by kofh2u, posted 12-22-2012 1:13 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 625 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 4:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 665 of 722 (685812)
12-27-2012 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by jaywill
12-22-2012 4:58 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:
I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.
You mean you would like to revoke His sunshine, His rain, His air, His gravity, His process of human love, marriage, birth, growth, etc.
You would like to revoke His entire creation from under your feet and from over your head.
Since He can't revoke mine without revoking yours too, that's a non-issue.
jaywill writes:
In spite of some typical hassles that all people in the world face, you have been granted many days of happiness with friends and to persue the things you like. No thanks to God for that either huh? You just wish God would leave you alone.
My friends can thank God for the gift of me if they want to.
jaywill writes:
And why do you come to Bible Study ? That's perculiar. Most people who hate baseball know better than to hang around Yankee Stadium. They might have to watch something about baseball.
Of course, I don't hate the Bible. I come to Bible Study to correct the misuse of the Bible. Funny how I keep butting up against you.
Where I would like your god to leave me alone is by not killing me for correcting you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by jaywill, posted 12-22-2012 4:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 667 of 722 (685819)
12-27-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by jaywill
12-27-2012 12:03 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:
By being so unthankful to God for the blessing of His creation you damage your own humanity.
I'm thankful for the creation. I'm just not thankful to the god that you portray. It's your portrayal of God that's harmful to anybody's humanity.
jaywill writes:
You resent God. But God loves you. You may be annoyed at Jesus. But Jesus loves you. And being a little thankful to God is a good place to start in seeing reality as reality should be seen.
I resent your portrayal of God and Jesus.
jaywill writes:
I don't mind anyone pointing out a legitimate misuse of the Bible by me, just for the record.
I don't know what that has to do with you treasuring that God would leave you alone.
You seem to read my posts the same way as you read the Bible; you make up your own version as you go along.
What I said was that I would like the god that you portray to leave me alone. If there actually was a God, a real God, a good God, that would be a different matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:03 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 671 of 722 (685824)
12-27-2012 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by jaywill
12-27-2012 12:58 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:
Do you mean that I misrepresent to Bible in saying that God loves you?
Yes. You conveniently ignore the parts where it says he's going to torment me eternally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 12:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 3:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 684 of 722 (685973)
12-28-2012 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by jaywill
12-27-2012 3:06 PM


Re: No healing Just Grace
jaywill writes:
What kind of existence do you think can be had in a state where God's forgiveness is rejected, His presence is disdained, His care is not wanted, His blessings are not needed, His holiness is insulted, His authority rejected, His glory profaned ?
A pretty good one.
jaywill writes:
Some believe that if God is good then He should not hate sin.
The only ones hurt by sin are us. When people are already hurt, it is not "good" to hurt them more.
jaywill writes:
In essence God says - "I will be good. But I will not be good at the expense of my being righteous. I will be good in a way which upholds my eternal righteous character."
That's exactly what I've been saying. God is not good - because he'd rather be righteous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2012 3:06 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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