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Author | Topic: Is God good? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I would question why you equate intelligence with authority - and what either of them has to do with goodness.
You should question why some humans cant imagine an intelligence greater than our own feeble species and why its silly to imagine such an authority?
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
"Responsible" is the key word there. The Biblical God comes across as a kind of deadbeat dad who can only be counted on to put His own interests first. We have to be responsible because He isn't.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
In this life, the innocent suffer while the evil live in luxury. An "ultimate accounting" in a hypothetical afterlife is a copout and inherently evil.
At least with the God of the Bible there is a concluding and final judgment according to an infallible record of one's deeds. With the evolutionary system all the evil doers will only melt peacefully into the dust of the ground.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
You're missing the point. Whether or not my gamble pays off is irrelevant to the topic. My point, which is on topic, is that the hypothesis of an afterlife in which accounts are settled is evil in itself. It's like raping somebody and saying, "Don't worry, I'll pay you next Tuesday." A god who would set up such a system is evil.
ringo writes:
That's YOUR gamble. That it is hypothetical.
In this life, the innocent suffer while the evil live in luxury. An "ultimate accounting" in a hypothetical afterlife is a copout and inherently evil.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
You're still missing the point. It is the hypothesis itself, the system,"God's plan" that is inherently evil. Itmakes no difference whether I believe it's true or not. Your belief is in an evil system, based on your definition of evil.
Now, if you say "Well, I say it is hypothetical because I don't believe any proof of Christ's resurrection is given." He may SAY many things. The record of what he DID is with God and is infallible.
We're not talking about what "he" said or did. We're talking about what God says He will do, according to your belief. What you say God will do, punish people after death while literally letting them get away with murder in life, is evil.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Kidnapping slaves was outlawed before owning slaves was abolished. The Bible seems to have little to say against owning slaves.
Also of note is that modern slave trade went exactly against Paul's teaching (based on OT) that KIDNAPPING was a sin....
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
Yes. That certainly throws absolute right and wrong out the window. The god of the Levites seems to be content with itsy-bitsy improvements instead of outright repentence. That's why the commandment says, "Thou shalt not kill as many people as thou did last week."
The Levitical laws seem to me to lean towards an overall improvement of a social practice. jaywill writes:
No kidding.
To our modern senses the word "slavery" is very negatively charged. jaywill writes:
Another way of preventing starvation is by feeding people.
Indentured servitude could be a way of escaping starvation or to repay depts.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Maybe you man that mean needs some leading to accept God's grace. Grace would be meaningless if you needed enlightenment to obtain it.
Man needs some leading progressively to the concept of grace in the Savior Christ. jaywill writes:
You see, you keep describing your own theology in terms that expose it as evil. What you're describing is like a fireman putting out a fire a little bit at a time or a doctor curing a disease a little bit at a time. Their inability to prevent suffering all at once should not be projected onto an omnipotent God. And blaming the victim is, again, downright evil.
In the progressive revelation of the Bible God has to school the man. Man has destroyed the relationship but he cannot fix it. God has to come in to fix it. jaywill writes:
What does atonement have to do with repentence? To repent, all you have to do is stop.
All the atoning offerings are related to repentence. jaywill writes:
I didn't say a word about war. I said that your idea of stopping slavery a little bit at a time is the same as murdering a few less people than you did last week.
War was an inevitable possibility. jaywill writes:
Nor do all drunk drivers kill people. Yet we do ban all drunk driving because of the potential danger. We hope to prevent deaths. But your "good" god with his "absolute justice" is content to have the drivers a little less drunk.
This does not garuantee ALL slave master's were just.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Grace is like a present under the Christmas tree with your name on it. You have to accept it - i.e. open it - to derive any value from it but you don't need to understand it. It might turn out to be an electronic gadget that you couldn't operate to save your life but it's still yours. You might appreciate it more if you acquire a jaywill-like understanding of it but you can't own it any more than you already do.
I don't follow this. "Grace would be meaningless if you needed enightenment to obtain it." Why?
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
God said that grace was all he was getting - i.e. he wasn't going to be healed.
Saul of Tarsus had to be knocked down to the ground with a light from heaven and a supernatural voice in order to bring him into an understanding of the grace of God. Latter a physical ailment troubled Paul very sorely. Paul prayed three times that God would have it removed. The answer came to enlighten him that Christ's GRACE was sufficient for him. jaywill writes:
What he had to learn was that grace was the only gift from God that he could count on. All other things he was expected to endure or fix on his own. Paul had to learn about how GRACE operated in his life. The only thing to be learned about grace is its limitations. The present under the tree is yours for the taking but you have to get your own Christmas dinner.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
It's true that I don't consider, "I could kill you but I won't," a treasure. I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure.
Its too bad that you don't realize like Paul what a treasuregrace was.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Since He can't revoke mine without revoking yours too, that's a non-issue.
I would consider your god just leaving me alone a treasure. You mean you would like to revoke His sunshine, His rain, His air, His gravity, His process of human love, marriage, birth, growth, etc. You would like to revoke His entire creation from under your feet and from over your head. jaywill writes:
My friends can thank God for the gift of me if they want to.
In spite of some typical hassles that all people in the world face, you have been granted many days of happiness with friends and to persue the things you like. No thanks to God for that either huh? You just wish God would leave you alone. jaywill writes:
Of course, I don't hate the Bible. I come to Bible Study to correct the misuse of the Bible. Funny how I keep butting up against you. And why do you come to Bible Study ? That's perculiar. Most people who hate baseball know better than to hang around Yankee Stadium. They might have to watch something about baseball. Where I would like your god to leave me alone is by not killing me for correcting you.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
I'm thankful for the creation. I'm just not thankful to the god that you portray. It's your portrayal of God that's harmful to anybody's humanity.
By being so unthankful to God for the blessing of His creation you damage your own humanity. jaywill writes:
I resent your portrayal of God and Jesus.
You resent God. But God loves you. You may be annoyed at Jesus. But Jesus loves you. And being a little thankful to God is a good place to start in seeing reality as reality should be seen. jaywill writes:
You seem to read my posts the same way as you read the Bible; you make up your own version as you go along. I don't mind anyone pointing out a legitimate misuse of the Bible by me, just for the record. I don't know what that has to do with you treasuring that God would leave you alone. What I said was that I would like the god that you portray to leave me alone. If there actually was a God, a real God, a good God, that would be a different matter.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Yes. You conveniently ignore the parts where it says he's going to torment me eternally.
Do you mean that I misrepresent to Bible in saying that God loves you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
A pretty good one.
What kind of existence do you think can be had in a state where God's forgiveness is rejected, His presence is disdained, His care is not wanted, His blessings are not needed, His holiness is insulted, His authority rejected, His glory profaned ? jaywill writes:
The only ones hurt by sin are us. When people are already hurt, it is not "good" to hurt them more.
Some believe that if God is good then He should not hate sin. jaywill writes:
That's exactly what I've been saying. God is not good - because he'd rather be righteous.
In essence God says - "I will be good. But I will not be good at the expense of my being righteous. I will be good in a way which upholds my eternal righteous character."
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