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Author Topic:   How do "novel" features evolve?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 12 of 314 (655421)
03-10-2012 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by zi ko
03-10-2012 5:29 AM


Re: biological evolution
zi ko writes:
There could be anotther responce version:
organism-environment interaction provides the needed information for mutations tobe somehow guided.
Yes. But the list of unevidenced fantasy causes is almost infinite in number.
So we try to ignore them - along with fairies, unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters.
When they become evidenced: then they are of interest.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by zi ko, posted 03-10-2012 5:29 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 28 of 314 (655984)
03-15-2012 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Chuck77
03-15-2012 5:12 AM


Analogy
Chuck77 writes:
Do any of these kinds transition/evolve into the another? Or do they stay in that kind?
Maybe an analogy will help:
Imagine that you were a black Irish American.
You would be African because your great great great great grandfather was born in Africa.
You would be Irish because your great grandfather was born in Ireland.
You would be American because your father was born in America.
So - you (as an individual) would always be African, Irish AND American.
In the same way an individual dog will always be a mammal, a canine AND a dog.
You are not able to change your heritage - e.g. you could not become a black Dutch American.
And an individual dog could not change to being a fish instead of a mammal.
Over the generations, your great grandchildren could change their nationality though: e.g. their parents could move to Canada.
But then they would be black Irish American Canadians.
They couldn't alter their heritage.
And if, over the generations, 'mammal canine dog' evolved sonar they would not become bats.
They would become 'mammal canine dog sonar'.
They couldn't alter their heritage.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 107 of 314 (659959)
04-19-2012 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
04-19-2012 10:58 PM


Re: Slower steps
jar writes:
There is a population of doggies.
Are you with me that far?
Do not take it for granted that he knows what a population is.
Ask for proof.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

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 Message 105 by jar, posted 04-19-2012 10:58 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 108 of 314 (659960)
04-19-2012 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by intellen
04-19-2012 10:08 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
intellen writes:
I am talking about natural selection of evolution, not mutation. Why are you talking about mutation?
quote:
Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution. Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
intellen writes:
It is not I that is very confused.
Yes it is.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 10:08 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 11:23 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 133 of 314 (659993)
04-20-2012 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by intellen
04-19-2012 11:23 PM


Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
int writes:
PANDA, I knew since ToE had been claming that. So, we can switch to mutation, right?
There is no 'switch'.
If you are talking about biological evolution then you are also talking about mutations.
int writes:
Again, nat selec is only for changes, aka, adaptation, not for origin of new species, aka, evolution of new species.
"changes, aka, adaptation" is evolution.
And if there are enough of the changes you also get a new species.
quote:
Natural selection is the gradual, nonrandom process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers.
It is a key mechanism of evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
quote:
Evolution is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
quote:
Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution.
Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
You think that Natural Selection is not connected to the evolution of a new species - but that is clearly wrong.
You think that Natural Selection and mutation are not connected - but that is also clearly wrong.
In summary: you do not understand even the most basic premises of the ToE.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 231 of 314 (661642)
05-08-2012 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by zaius137
05-08-2012 5:24 PM


Re: creating "information" is either easy or irrelevant
And to add to jar's critique:
zaius137 writes:
Premise 5: LIFE is not due to regularity.
Premise 6: LIFE is due to regularity, chance, or design.
Premise 5 and 6 are contradictory.
zaius137 writes:
Premise 6: LIFE is due to regularity, chance, or design.
Conclusion: LIFE is due to design.
The conclusion is invalidated just by premise 6.
At best it would be "Conclusion: some life is due to design."
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by zaius137, posted 05-08-2012 5:24 PM zaius137 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by caffeine, posted 05-09-2012 7:07 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 235 of 314 (661703)
05-09-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by caffeine
05-09-2012 7:07 AM


Re: creating "information" is either easy or irrelevant
caffeine writes:
A: x is either an even or an odd number.
B: x is not an even number.
Conclusion: x is an odd number.
Premise 6 is stating that the only three possibilities are regularity, chance and design. Premise 5 rules out regularity
Then Premise 6 contradicts ("rules out") Premise 5?
To say (e.g.) that "This number is either odd or even, but it is not even." seems contradictory to me.
Surely it should just be: "This number is odd." or "LIFE is due to chance or design".
caffeine writes:
....it's just based on false premises.
This seems to be common ground between us.
caffeine writes:
But, if I've understood this correctly, then life is surely not specified. The number of different configurations in which life can arrange itself successfully can be seen by looking at the world, and the staggering number of ways it already does arrange itself. Different animals use a huge variety of different proteins to do similar or identical tasks, for example. What's specified about that?
I don't think that 'specificity' has anything to do with 'specifics'.
The word was taken away from its linguistic roots and used to lend support to an argument simply because it 'sounded good'.
From what I remember, specificity is the (innate?) ability to know something when you see it.
How that relates to 'specified events' is not known to me.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by caffeine, posted 05-09-2012 7:07 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by caffeine, posted 05-10-2012 5:38 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 237 of 314 (661752)
05-09-2012 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by zaius137
05-09-2012 4:39 PM


Re: creating "information" is either easy or irrelevant
zaius137 writes:
There is a lot to catch up on here and I hope the other participants understand why I cannot get right to the arguments they present although they are just as challenging.
1 good post is worth 20 crap ones.
Remember, there is no rush.
Even if it takes weeks, there is nothing (other than your own preference) preventing you from answering every post.
Forums can run at a slower pace than (e.g.) chat rooms.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by zaius137, posted 05-09-2012 4:39 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
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