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Author Topic:   radical liberals (aka liberal commies) vs ultra conservatives (aka nutjobs)
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 243 of 300 (661736)
05-09-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:26 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others.
So, when someone is imprisoned for tax avoidance, that is a breach of their human rights?
And when someone is imprisoned for trespassing, that is a breach of their human rights?
And when someone is imprisoned for burglary, that is a breach of their human rights?
And when someone is imprisoned for animal cruelty, that is a breach of their human rights?
Or perhaps you would like to add some more criteria to your 'right of liberty'?

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:26 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:53 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 244 of 300 (661739)
05-09-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by NoNukes
05-09-2012 4:28 PM


Re: Questioning the line of reasoning...
NoNukes writes:
I don't care what Taq says.
When I am pointing out a problem with Taq's position, it seems silly for you to jump in and say "But that is not what I think!".
/shrug
NoNukes writes:
And the fact that some people don't recognize some right does not mean it does not exist. It just means that the right is not universally accepted or respected.
And if you read what I wrote (here it is again):
quote:
And the fact that different people feel differently about something that only happens in certain countries shows how non-universal the human right of 'liberty' is.
...you can see that I didn't say that they didn't exist.
In fact, you have pretty much repeated what I wrote.
Try this:
If one person thinks that humans have a right to liberty and another person thinks that humans don't have a right to liberty, how do you determine which of them is correct?

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 4:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:56 PM Panda has not replied
 Message 259 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 11:15 PM Panda has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 250 of 300 (661748)
05-09-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Taq
05-09-2012 5:53 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:
"The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others"
I'll fix that for you:
Taq writes:
If I understand Locke's arguments correctly, tax avoidance is a violation of the social contract and can therefore result in imprisonment.
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract.
Taq writes:
When you trespass you are violating the rights of others. The same for burglary.
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights.
Taq writes:
Animal cruelty is a new comer to the list, and is still controversial. That would probably need a thread of its own.
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights or do certain other things that don't break any of the previous rules but still appear to be enough to remove your right to liberty.
Sheeesh! Your right to liberty has so many caveats, it looks like a politician devised it.
Shall we keep going?
I can provide more breaches and you can add more criteria.
Eventually your right to liberty has been cut back until it barely applies to anyone.
So...
Taq writes:
Panda writes:
You continue to be unable to provide a single human right that is not situational, conditional and subjective.
I have supplied three: life, liberty, and property.
Well, all those conditions excludes liberty.
Let's look at property next...
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 5:53 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 6:53 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 253 of 300 (661760)
05-09-2012 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Taq
05-09-2012 6:53 PM


Re: A statist by any other name...
Taq writes:
I never claimed that this is an easy subject.
Well, clearly you are struggling with it.
You claimed that the right to liberty was unconditional....which is shown to be very wrong:
The right of liberty is the right to stay out of prison if you have not interfered with the liberties of others, or broken an unspecified social contract or violated other peoples' rights or do certain other things that don't break any of the previous rules but still appear to be enough to remove your right to liberty.
Taq writes:
Panda writes:
Taq writes:
Panda writes:
You continue to be unable to provide a single human right that is not situational, conditional and subjective.
I have supplied three: life, liberty, and property.
Well, all those conditions excludes liberty.
Nowhere have I defined liberty as the right to do whatever you want to whomever you please.
Fascinating.
Anyway, back to what I actually wrote:
All those conditions exclude liberty as an unconditional human right.
You have 'inalienable' rights being taken away.
You have 'unconditional' rights with numerous restrictions.
Look: if you don't know what a word means then stop using it.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 6:53 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Taq, posted 05-09-2012 8:08 PM Panda has not replied

  
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