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Author Topic:   Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19981
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 121 of 220 (661852)
05-10-2012 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ScottyDouglas
05-10-2012 4:21 PM


MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Hi again ScottyDouglas

... Thier are many lies. ...

This thread is about listing frauds and hoaxes by creationists and sciences. If you have a list of these lies then please post it.

... No because you like smash creationist but because you want someone to.Cause inside you know it but you cant prove it.thats the reason for this thread.

No, the purpose of the thread is to document Scientific and Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes ... and so far the number of creationist frauds and hoaxes outnumber those perpetuated by scientists by a large number.

... .You love to debate it. ...

This thread is to document frauds and hoaxes, rather than to debate the validity of evolution.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-10-2012 4:21 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-10-2012 6:09 PM RAZD has responded

  
ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2527 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 122 of 220 (661860)
05-10-2012 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by RAZD
05-10-2012 5:55 PM


Re: MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Does Giants-put a frown on evolution?It would be signifiant?Im in this thread.This is my last post here.Im new and all that.But answer this honestly.No evidence or facts just the answer.If Giants exist I mean 10 to 30 feet tall is that a signifiant piece of facts for evolution?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 123 of 220 (661864)
05-10-2012 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ScottyDouglas
05-10-2012 6:09 PM


Giants
.If Giants exist I mean 10 to 30 feet tall is that a signifiant piece of facts for evolution?

There is no credible skeletal evidence of 10-30 ft. tall humans.

One of my fields of study is human skeletal analysis, and I've examined thousands of skeletons over a 40-year time span, as well as read hundreds of reports from my colleagues.

There is no credible evidence for "giants."


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-10-2012 6:09 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-12-2012 4:10 AM Coyote has responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 124 of 220 (661885)
05-10-2012 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ScottyDouglas
05-10-2012 6:09 PM


Re: MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Does Giants-put a frown on evolution?It would be signifiant?Im in this thread.This is my last post here.Im new and all that.But answer this honestly.No evidence or facts just the answer.If Giants exist I mean 10 to 30 feet tall is that a signifiant piece of facts for evolution?

While "giants" between 10-30' in height have not been found (and are unlikely to; the musculature and skeleton required for a 30' tall biped would differ significantly, I think, from what we see in humans and other primates), we have found "hobbits." The existence of the "shire folk" didn't shake the Theory of Evolution - they're merely hypothesized to be our evolutionary cousins.

Now, if you find a Pegasus, or a Chimaera, we might have something that doesn;t fit with the ToE.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19981
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 125 of 220 (661893)
05-10-2012 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ScottyDouglas
05-10-2012 6:09 PM


Giants
Hi again ScottyDouglas,

Does Giants-put a frown on evolution?It would be signifiant? ... If Giants exist I mean 10 to 30 feet tall is that a signifiant piece of facts for evolution?

Short answer, no: there are lots of hominids of many different sizes, some larger and some smaller (Homo floresiensis for example) than humans, however not any discovered to date in scientifically documented digs have been that big.

If one were found, then it would just be another piece of the natural history of life on earth, the data that needs to be explained by theory.

New finds have caused changes in the knowledge of the natural history, and then fit into the pattern of the development of life on this planet -- feathered dinosaurs is an example that has cropped up in recent times, showing that many dinosaurs were feathered before flying birds evolved. They also show ancestral traits to birds plus derived traits from older ancestral dinosaurs, thus fitting into the transition between dinosaurs and birds.

As far as giant bones go, though, an interesting book you might want to read is

The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times by Adrienne Mayor:

quote:
Griffins, Centaurs, Cyclopes, and Giants--these fabulous creatures of classical mythology continue to live in the modern imagination through the vivid accounts that have come down to us from the ancient Greeks and Romans. But what if these beings were more than merely fictions? What if monstrous creatures once roamed the earth in the very places where their legends first arose? This is the arresting and original thesis that Adrienne Mayor explores in The First Fossil Hunters. Through careful research and meticulous documentation, she convincingly shows that many of the giants and monsters of myth did have a basis in fact--in the enormous bones of long-extinct species that were once abundant in the lands of the Greeks and Romans.As Mayor shows, the Greeks and Romans were well aware that a different breed of creatures once inhabited their lands. They frequently encountered the fossilized bones of these primeval beings, and they developed sophisticated concepts to explain the fossil evidence, concepts that were expressed in mythological stories. The legend of the gold-guarding griffin, for example, sprang from tales first told by Scythian gold-miners, who, passing through the Gobi Desert at the foot of the Altai Mountains, encountered the skeletons of Protoceratops and other dinosaurs that littered the ground.Like their modern counterparts, the ancient fossil hunters collected and measured impressive petrified remains and displayed them in temples and museums; they attempted to reconstruct the appearance of these prehistoric creatures and to explain their extinction. Long thought to be fantasy, the remarkably detailed and perceptive Greek and Roman accounts of giant bone finds were actually based on solid paleontological facts. By reading these neglected narratives for the first time in the light of modern scientific discoveries, Adrienne Mayor illuminates a lost world of ancient paleontology. As Peter Dodson writes in his Foreword, "Paleontologists, classicists, and historians as well as natural history buffs will read this book with the greatest of delight--surprises abound."

It should be available at your local library.

It is perfectly reasonable that ancient people would find bones of prehistoric animals from elephants to dinosaurs, and have developed explanations for them.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-10-2012 6:09 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 220 (661896)
05-10-2012 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ScottyDouglas
05-10-2012 6:09 PM


Re: MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Does Giants-put a frown on evolution?It would be signifiant?Im in this thread.This is my last post here.Im new and all that.But answer this honestly.No evidence or facts just the answer.If Giants exist I mean 10 to 30 feet tall is that a signifiant piece of facts for evolution?

Any true thing would be significant. However, this is not significant because it is not true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-10-2012 6:09 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-11-2012 3:40 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2527 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 127 of 220 (662016)
05-11-2012 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Dr Adequate
05-10-2012 7:51 PM


Re: MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Atleast admit It would be signifiant.Also fossils you find also agrees with what find which is adnormalities.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-10-2012 7:51 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 128 of 220 (662043)
05-11-2012 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ScottyDouglas
05-11-2012 3:40 PM


Re: MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Atleast admit It would be signifiant.

I did say it would be significant. It just isn't true.

Also fossils you find also agrees with what find which is adnormalities.

Was that intended to be written in English? Only it isn't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-11-2012 3:40 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12613
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 129 of 220 (662063)
05-11-2012 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ScottyDouglas
05-11-2012 3:40 PM


Re: MORE OFF TOPIC DRIFT
Hi Scott,

Spaces after periods, remember?

Also, if you're using Firefox or Chrome then your misspelled words will be underlined in red. If you're using Internet Explorer then there are spell checking plugins.

Edited by Admin, : Ironically and embarrassingly, spelling.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2527 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 130 of 220 (662075)
05-12-2012 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Coyote
05-10-2012 6:15 PM


Re: Giants
The History of Marion County, Ohio (complied from past accounts, published in 1883)

The History of Brown County, Ohio (complied from past accounts, published in 1883)

Now and Long Ago-A History of the Marion County Area
by Glen Lough (1969)
(This citation on West Virginia courtesy Dave Cain.)

Collected by James Mooney (1861-1921), tells of the visit of very tall people from the west:

James Wafford, of the western Cherokee, who was born in Georgia in 1806, says that his grandmother, who must have been born about the middle of the last century, told him that she had heard from the old people that long before her time a party of giants had once come to visit the Cherokee. They were nearly twice as tall as common men, and had their eyes set slanting in their heads, so that the Cherokee called them Tsunil´ kalu´, "the Slant-eyed people," because they looked like the giant hunter Tsul´ kalu´. They said that these giants lived far away in the direction in which the sun goes down. The Cherokee received them as friends, and they stayed some time, and then returned to their home in the west...

Historical Encyclopedia of Illinois and History of Lake County
Edited by Newton Bateman, LL.D. and Paul Selby, A.M. (1902)

Historical Collections of Ohio in Two Volumes
by Henry Howe, LL.D. (1888)

The Firelands Pioneer (1858)

Henry Schoolcraft (1793-1864):The Indian has a low, bushy brow, beneath which a dull, sleepy, half-closed eye seems to mark the ferocious passions that are dormant within. The acute angles of the eyes seldom present the obliquity so common in the Malays and the Mongolians. The color of the eye is almost uniformly a tint between black and grey; but even in young persons it seldom has the brightness, or expresses the vivacity, so common in the more civilized races.

Bureau of Indian Affairs (1852)

Reports of Smithsonians Power and Thomas

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in
1894)
(Cyrus Thomas' investigations of Etowah)

Plat of the Etowah Group, Bartow County, Georgia.
Grave A (found in the largest mound of the group) contained a seven-foot skeleton having a heavy frame.

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)
(explorations in the Tennessee District)

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)
(explorations in Roane County, Tennessee)

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)
(mounds at Dunleith, Illinois)

Mound Group, Dunleith, Illinois.

"Near the original surface, 10 or 12 feet from the center, on the lower side, lying at full length on its back, was one of the largest skeletons discovered by the Bureau agents, the length as proved by actual measurement being between 7 and 8 feet."

The Adair County News
January 5, 1897
(Kentucky)

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)
(Pike County, Illinois)

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)
(Kanawha County, West Virginia)

Spring Hill Inclosure, Kanawha County, West Virginia.

In the bottom of Mound 11 (upper left) was found a skeleton "fully seven feet long."

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in
1894)
(Kanawha County, West Virginia)

A Section of the Great Smith Mound, Kanawha County, West Virginia.

This cone-shaped mound rose 35 feet high and measured 175 feet in diameter at its base. The interior of the mound contained a vault made of timber measuring 12 feet by 13 feet. It was positioned within the mound 20 feet above surface level.

12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)
(Union County, Mississippi)

Group of mounds in Union County, Mississippi.

A large Indian mound near the town of Gastersville, [Gastonville?—Ed.] Pa., has recently been opened and examined by a committee of scientists sent out from the Smithsonian Institute. At some depth from the surface a kind of vault was found in which was discovered the skeleton of a giant measuring seven feet two inches. His hair was coarse and jet black, and hung to the waist, the brow being ornamented with a copper crown. The skeleton was remarkably well preserved...On the stones which covered the vault were carved inscriptions, and these when deciphered, will doubtless lift the veil that now shrouds the history of the race of people that at one time inhabited this part of the American continent. The relics have been carefully packed and forwarded to the Smithsonian Institute, and they are said to be the most interesting collection ever found in the United States.

American Antiquarian, 7:52, 1885

The question has been raised asking whether there was giant stature among the Native American people in earlier historic times. From Hardesty's History of Monroe County, Ohio, we discovered this:

He further told me of the killing of a big Indian at Buckchitawa, about the time of the settlement at Marietta. The Indians had a white prisoner whom they forced to decoy boats to the shore. A small boat was descending the river containing white people, when this prisoner was placed under the bank to tell those in the boat that he had escaped captivity, and to come to the shore and take him in. The Indians were concealed, but the big Indian stuck his head out from behind a large tree, when it was pierced by a bullet from the gun of the steersman of the boat. The Indians cried out Wetzel, Wetzel, and fled. This was the last ever seen of the prisoner. The Indians returned next day and buried the big Indian, who, he said, was twenty inches taller than he was, and he was a tall man. When Chester Bishop was digging a cellar for Asahel Booth, at Clarington, many years ago, he came across a skeleton, the bones of which were removed carefully by Dr. Richard Kirkpatrick, and from his measurement the height of the man when living would have been 8 feet and 5 inches. It is probable that these were the bones of the big Indian of whom the Indian at Jackson's told me.

The Mound at Marietta Drawn by Henry Howe in 1846.

Howe stated this mound was "of a magnitude and height which strike the beholder with astonishment." It's base had a diameter of 115 feet; it's height reached up 30 feet. It was surrounded by a ditch four feet deep and fifteen feet wide.

And again this:

A large quantity of human bones was discovered in a fissure in the limestone near the United States Coast Guard lighthouse. A crude tomb of black stone slabs, of a formation not known on the island, was found many years ago beneath the roots of a huge stump. Eight skeletons were found, one measuring over seven feet in height.

Sketches and Stories of the Lake Erie Islands
by Theresa Thorndale, Sandusky (1898)

American Indian Myths and Mysteries
Vincent H. Gaddis (1977)

Another grotesque twist is the Army Medical Museum's collection. According to the ABC News special "Skeletons in the Closet," the United States government acquired a real interest in Indian corpses. The Surgeon General, in post-Civil War 1868, requested that the army collect the skulls, utensils, and weaponry of Native Americans "as far as you are able to procure them." According to the report, these were to be sent to Washington, D.C. as part of a program that studied the effects of modern bullets and other weaponry on human bodies. The collection of such remains, estimated at 4,000, was taken mostly from grave and battle sites. What was left over became part of the Smithsonian collection estimated at 18,000 individuals, and this by way of the Army Medical Museum.

"The Army Medical Museum in Washington" by Louis Bagger Appletons' Journal: A Magazine Of General LiteratureVolume 9, Issue 206 (1873)

The Journal of Christopher Columbus, by C.R. Markham(London, 1893)

By M.Innes (London, 1955) The terrible bodies of the giants lay crushed beneath thier own massive structures.

Edited by Admin, : Remove extraneous carriage-returns.


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Admin
Director
Posts: 12613
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 131 of 220 (662085)
05-12-2012 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by ScottyDouglas
05-12-2012 4:10 AM


Re: Giants
Hi Scotty,

Congratulations on the ugliest post I have ever seen. I'm going to fix it, but please do not do this again. Please see Message 26 that I posted to you over at your Evolution and Science 'so called'- thread.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-12-2012 4:10 AM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 301 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 132 of 220 (662102)
05-12-2012 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by ScottyDouglas
05-12-2012 4:10 AM


Re: Giants
I have a number of those reports in my library, but I don't even need to go look them up. I know what you're doing. You are pitting anecdotes over 100 years old where estimates were made by individuals untrained in the relevant fields to support a position that is disproved by tens of thousands of actual observations made by modern experts. Pretty thin gruel there, eh?

Just one question: Why are not those "giants" still being found by archaeologists (such as myself) and my hundreds of colleagues around the country?

Stature reconstruction is a simple thing to do. Measurements from any of the long bones can be used with a standard formula to give a good estimate of stature, and there are more recent techniques that can be applied to full skeletons that are even more accurate.

A few very tall individuals have been found, but the vast majority of skeletons that are found are of normal height. No race of "giants" here, sorry.

Edited by Coyote, : Grammar


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-12-2012 4:10 AM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19981
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 133 of 220 (662140)
05-12-2012 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ScottyDouglas
05-12-2012 4:10 AM


Re: Giants
Hi ScottyDouglas,

I hope you realize that most of this is poorly documented and assembled hearsay and anecdotal evidence, rather than objective empirical evidence.

People 7 to 8 feet tall do occur (Andre the giant, various basketball players), certainly none of these are 30 ft tall giants eh?

The History of Marion County, Ohio (complied from past accounts, published in 1883)

Please provide the url for the website you copied this information from so we can check it to see if it is honest or another creationist fraud site.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-12-2012 4:10 AM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3552
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 134 of 220 (662141)
05-12-2012 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by RAZD
05-12-2012 6:47 PM


Re: Giants
... so we can check it to see if it is honest or another creationist fraud site.

Er, you mean "yet another creationist fraud site", don't you?

So many creationist frauds, so little time.

And yet, when someone wants to do actual research into these giant claims, creationists are oh so completely disinterested.


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 Message 133 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2012 6:47 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 135 of 220 (662143)
05-12-2012 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ScottyDouglas
05-12-2012 4:10 AM


Re: Giants
Plat of the Etowah Group, Bartow County, Georgia.
Grave A (found in the largest mound of the group) contained a seven-foot skeleton having a heavy frame.

Robert Waldo would laugh at that puny little skeleton man the largest recorded man was 8 feet 11 inches.

Most of these giants like the largest living man today are that tall due to hypertrophy of their pituitary gland, which results in an abnormally high level of human growth hormone.

Basicaly they dont stop growing.

as far as i can tell the rest of the post are just ramblings of the size of some mounds. I got a mound 5 meters by 5 meeter's in my backyard so what. do-sent mean im 5 meters by 5 meters large.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


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