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Author Topic:   Let's face it...
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 108 (559)
12-11-2001 8:18 AM


Sex was ment to be an emotionally attaching event designed to bond two people together (a man and a woman.) However when people use it just to forfill a lustfull desire it loosing it's meaning until the whole point of a relationship looses it's meaning. I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex.
[This message has been edited by redstang281, 12-11-2001]

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 10:43 AM redstang281 has replied
 Message 10 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 10:56 AM redstang281 has replied
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 12-11-2001 5:19 PM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 108 (576)
12-11-2001 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by joz
12-11-2001 10:43 AM


""Oh that was nice of him. Ima sure that's a huge consolation to the children born with aids "heh I may be well and truly buggered but at least I know that God punished my parents for adultery...""
Come to mention it what about the faithful spouse who contracts something nasty because their partner strayed? They didn't do any wrong but they get punished anyway....Hmmmmm...
Mate your talking out of your arse, two of the qualities you religious buggers claim for the big fellow are Omnicogniscience (all knowing) and omnibenevolence (all caring).
I'm sure you see the logical problem with insisting that such a God created
STDs......"
I'm not judging you on the courses of your life as I am sure I have followed some that I regret. God cursed man when man sinned. When man judges God, God does not always fit the definition of fair, but it is not in our place to judge God. He has a reason for doing everything that he does. In everyone's life bad things are going to happen, just as good things will. The bad things will always be attributed to Adam and Eve's sinning which is a perfect example of everyone in the human race. The bible says no one is innocent of sin. So when you say "this person didn't do anything wrong" that is not true from a Christian perspective. Most atheist make the mistake of assuming the bible is trying to say that God makes life perfect(no disease, no pain.. etc.) While it is true that God did make life perfect in the beginning, man destroyed that perfection. What the bible is saying is that heaven is perfect, all things residing in heaven are perfect, and the only way that an imperfect man can get into heaven is through the perfect savior Jesus Christ.
"Oh and make use of the spell checker before posting please.... "
Is this an attempt to intimidate me through my spelling mistakes and make me feel less intelligent?
Please don't resort to that level. I'm not attacking you, just explaining things from a Christian perspective. I would hope that you would appreciate my replies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 10:43 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 1:53 PM redstang281 has replied
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-11-2001 2:03 PM redstang281 has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 108 (578)
12-11-2001 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by joz
12-11-2001 10:56 AM


Oh and Given that:
a)My relationship with my wife started with a drunken one night stand.
b)3 years later we are happily married
your assertion that "whole point of a relationship looses it's meaning." can presumably be discarded unless it is for the special case where the whole relationship is based on sexual tension anyway.....
In which case having sex early in a relationship is a good thing as it will expose purely physical attractions for what they are....
I believe it is better to focus sex on the relationship instead of the relationship on sex. I believe sex is supposed to compliment the relationship and be a special thing that you can share only with your partner. Some people have focus so much on the sexual side that they have given up completely on the relationship side. Those people then move from person to person without care of who they are but only the gratification they receive. I believe the reason for God's law against adultery is both to protect us from the STD's, the repercussions(to children of cheating parents) and also to help us receive his gift of a sex. Many would agree that sex is much more rewarding when it is with someone who knows and loves you. I believe this is how God intended sex to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 10:56 AM joz has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 108 (599)
12-11-2001 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by joz
12-11-2001 1:53 PM


"Im sorry but arguing that an unborn child has already sinned and deserves to be born with aids isnt terribly convincing as evidence of an omnibenevolent big fella...."
The world is no longer perfect. That is because of man, not because of God.
"I hope you asked Santa for some thicker skin....."
I probably should ask Santa, because evolution won't help. Sorry, low blow I know
Just a joke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 1:53 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by joz, posted 12-11-2001 3:30 PM redstang281 has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 108 (614)
12-11-2001 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mark24
12-11-2001 5:19 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Sex was meant to be an emotionally attaching event designed to bond two people together (a man and a woman.) However when people use it just to forfill a lustfull desire it loosing it's meaning until the whole point of a relationship looses it's meaning."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... Wrong way, Love is meant to be an emotional way of attaching people SO they have sex.
"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."
HAHAHAHAHAHA.....Nope, God created all life in 6 days. This meant Adam (Eve?) had every known sexually transmitted parasite known to man, & God gave it to them!!!! LOL
Why does the faithful husband get STDs off of his flirty wife then? Whats he done now to anger Him? Just can't do anything right, can we!!
"Im sorry but arguing that an unborn child has already sinned and deserves to be born with aids isnt terribly convincing as evidence of an omnibenevolent big fella...."
"The world is no longer perfect. That is because of man, not because of God."
Whaaaaaaaaaat!!! But didn't God create the world & MAN??? If God didn't want to have to create the (very well designed) AIDS virus by way of punishing the innocent, then maybe he should have put more thought into us. He didn't HAVE to make some people (turn to) evil. But you God Bods can't have it both ways. He created us imperfectly or he didn't.
I'll probably be the only person that thanks you for "that STD gift"

I'm sorry but I consider God more of an authority than yourself. God said sex is his gift to a married couple. For those who choose to abuse this gift there is std's. Before the fall of man there was no sin (or degeneration.) Animals didn't kill each other for food, there were no thorn bushes, and most likely no std's. This was something the bible says came about after man's sin. If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true. As for a husband who gets aids from a cheating wife, maybe God is paying him back for some other sin he commited earlier. I believe it is intirely possible that we are not always punished emmidiatly after we sin. But that being said still I must erge you to understand this basic fundamentalist christian understanding that we are all sinners!! Even when we are born. The sin that Adam commited is carried down through all his generations. Therefor no one is innocent.
God did not create evil. Even though God has control over everything, God did not make lucifer's rebellion against him. It does not seem logical but that's because we can't understand it. God actions are not limited to our comprehension. A contradiction to us is comprehension to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 12-11-2001 5:19 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:32 AM redstang281 has replied
 Message 78 by nator, posted 12-18-2001 1:41 AM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 108 (618)
12-12-2001 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mark24
12-12-2001 3:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
But unborn children never fell. They are blameless. God gave STDs to people who DIDN'T abuse his gifts.
Didn't Jesus die for our sins? Seems he may as well put his feet up & enjoyed a day with a sixpack (for OUR sins, of course), for all the good it did. What was the point? If God is STILL insistent on punishing innocents. We may as well ALL give up & go home if we've been pre-judged in this malicious way.
"If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true."
What ARE you talking about? Nothing would change on planet Earth if they shagged themselves stupid years before they got married (if they bothered at all).
Whether Adam sinned or not is irrelevant. I AM NOT A SINNER. How many Christians would accept life imprisonment on this basis? For being guilty of someone else's crime. NOT YOU, THAT'S FOR SURE!!
Utter rubbish. Please don't insult me saying I don't understand. What's to misinterpret?
I'm guilty of someone else's crime, Jesus died for my sin (actually someone elses), & I'm STILL TO BLAME!!!
Sheesh....God sure is hard to please....
So what's the point in Final Judgement if were ALL guilty anyway. Seems to me I may as well go & murder someone, because I'm already being blamed (I wonder if someone else gets the blame for that murder, maybe thats how it works).

Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation.
Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again.
Yes, God is hard to please. God is impossible for man to please. EVERYONE falls short of God's commandments and each one of those is a sin. Jesus did for the sin you committed, are committing currently, and the sin you destined to commit. For nothing can enter heaven that is not pure, but God with God anything is possible so Jesus is the path God gives us to take.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:32 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 8:30 AM redstang281 has replied
 Message 28 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 11:34 AM redstang281 has replied
 Message 36 by lburbank111, posted 12-12-2001 1:02 PM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 108 (633)
12-12-2001 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by joz
12-12-2001 8:30 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Ok:
a)Is there a set of internally consistent rules to follow in order to avoid sinning?

Yes. But only God himself is capable of following them. Jesus followed all the rules during his life.
b)If there is I suggest it is possible to follow the rules and not sin.
[/QUOTE]
Only God can follow the rules.

c)If this is the case I stipulate that if there is free will we are not sinners until we ourselves have sinned.
d)In which case an unborn child is not a sinner or there is no free will.
So which is it to be original sin or free will? One of them needs to be voted off the island....
[/QUOTE]
Because God knows the future doesn't mean he controls it. You can plant a grass seed and know that it will only grow up grass and not a palm tree because you know the nature of the seed.
[This message has been edited by redstang281, 12-12-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 8:30 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 9:53 AM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 108 (636)
12-12-2001 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by joz
12-12-2001 9:53 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
That is besides the point you cannot have both original sin and free will, One claims you will sin as a matter of course, the other that you determine your own actions....
So which is it to be free will of original sin you cant have both.....

Because you can not jump to the moon does that mean you do not have free will? It just means you are incapable of jumping to the moon. Just as man is incapable of not sinning but still has free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 9:53 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 10:51 AM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 108 (649)
12-12-2001 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by joz
12-12-2001 10:51 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
But free will allows that a mans actions are not predetermined it is therefore feasible that a man acting of his own free will would not sin. You seem to be claiming that original sin implys that man must sin therefore renouncing the self determination imbued by free will.....
I ask again do you believe in free will or original sin for the two are mutually exclusive as you present them....
On another note your jumping to the moon analogy is faulty in that man has jumped to the moon (it took a long time, a lot of money and even more skull sweat but NASA did it).....
[This message has been edited by joz, 12-12-2001]

The analogy meant with his own two feet. Geez!! Give me a break here.
I will say again, and I will say it over and over again if I have to, I believe in free will AND original sin. Because God set the standard of rules only on his attainability, it is impossible for a mortal man to comply with each rule. And the sin of Adam weighs upon all of our shoulders.
[This message has been edited by redstang281, 12-12-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 10:51 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:21 PM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 108 (652)
12-12-2001 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by mark24
12-12-2001 11:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."
Actually, all the biblical account shows is that Adam can't take instructions. I wouldn't have eaten the apple & would therefore be innocent where Adam is not. It is obviously wrong to blame people for other peoples crimes. If I punched you in the face you wouldn't call the police & finger someone else, or would you?
I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all. No, thought not.
Also, why are some babies punished for Adams crimes with congenital illnesses that amount to a death sentence, yet others are allowed to live to a 100+ years?
"Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again. "
But why did he have to be nailed to a plank? Couldn't Jesus thrown a wild party for everyone, or Got a Video & KFC, or picked his nose so we can enter Heaven. God makes the rules he could have done it any way, surely? Hang on! Why am I surprised? This bloke causes babies to be born with HIV because someone 6,000 years ago ate an apple, why would he be compassionate to his own son?

Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 11:34 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 12:27 PM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 108 (657)
12-12-2001 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by joz
12-12-2001 12:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
And I assert that in any system where the plenun of choices is restricted there is no free will.....
Having a limit to what you can do does not mean you have no free will.
Because you can not grow to be 20 feet tall doesn't mean you don't have free will.
You have free will to attempt the impossible, but that doesn't mean you can obtain the impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:21 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:37 PM redstang281 has replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 108 (662)
12-12-2001 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mark24
12-12-2001 12:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid."
1/ God KNOWS the nature of man, he created him. Some people would have eaten it, some wouldn't. Some people WOULD have followed ALL the rules. Incidentally, what are these rules that no-one can follow. You seem very sure I would be fallible.

This is you putting human qualities into God. If you or I created something than yes we should know everything about it. But when God creates something he is certainly capible of making it's nature unknown to him if he chooses. Or, it's also feasible that God did know our nature when he created us, and our redemtion through Jesus Christ was his elaborate plan for us that he knew all along.
As far as you stand I reserve judgement because I myself am fallible as well (through no suprise to you I am sure
.)
[b] [QUOTE] 2/ For the third time.......
"I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all."
Mark
[/b]
[/QUOTE]
If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty.
Yes the apple that adam ate was a specific action, but that showed God that man can not be trusted. God can judge us all based on that one action of Adam. And it is an accurate judgement or else we wouldn't have the expression "we're only human, we make mistakes."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 12:27 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:31 PM redstang281 has replied
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 12-12-2001 8:00 PM redstang281 has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 108 (664)
12-12-2001 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joz
12-12-2001 12:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
But by your own logic if original sin holds true man cannot ever make an honest attempt at living free from sin so their free will is constrained and therefore a misnomer....

Oh man can always try to live without sin. We're supposed to try. But what we have to realize is we can't make it. So that's where Jesus comes in.
[b] [QUOTE] I can make an honest effort to discover surgical, genetic manipulation techniques to achieve the end of growing to be 20 ft tall...
[/b][/QUOTE]
Right.... Even if it were possible, you'd be good at basketball but still wouldn't get around the other end of my analogy.
[b] [QUOTE] I may fail in both cases the difference is that there is a possible solution that involves the achievement of my aims in the second case, a solution that is missing assuming your original sin constraint of free will....[/b][/QUOTE]
Free will gives us the ability to do whatever is humanly possibly. I will forever retain the elementary knowledge that everyone makes mistakes(or sins.) And everyone knows it's impossible not to ever make a mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:37 PM joz has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 108 (665)
12-12-2001 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by lburbank111
12-12-2001 1:02 PM


quote:
Originally posted by lburbank111:
Where does the bible say that it's an apple?

Very good. Actually it says fruit, but the common idea is it was an apple, so I said apple.
[b] [QUOTE] How could Adam (working within the myth) know if it was right or wrong before he ate from the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"?
[/b][/QUOTE]
The bible says God told him not to eat from that tree.
[b] [QUOTE] If people are still sinners, as you state, then how can they enter heaven, since you also state that nothing impure can enter heaven?[/b][/QUOTE]
Good question my friend. Jesus died for our sins and through praying to Jesus that you know you sin(make mistakes against God's word) and asking for forgiveness you may enter heaven through his suffering. For nothing may exist in heaven that includes sin and the only to be cleared of sin is through Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by lburbank111, posted 12-12-2001 1:02 PM lburbank111 has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 108 (671)
12-12-2001 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by mark24
12-12-2001 1:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty."
In which case, the death penalty for "being human" would be unfair?

No, if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:31 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:53 PM redstang281 has replied

  
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