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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
jar
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Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 137 of 255 (657893)
03-31-2012 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 6:53 PM


Re: bottom line
That idea just plain seems really silly to me and I and a few others addressed that concept beginning in Message 49 where I said:

quote:
In the Bible, prophecy was a message from God to his people, the people living at the time of the utterance, a celestial dope slap. It was God saying "If you keep doing what you are doing then all hell will break lose."

It was not always immediate, but the message was meant to be acted on right then.

An example is the story of Joseph and the seven year cycle; Joseph telling Pharaoh that "hey, we are having good times now but they may not last, and unless you put stuff aside now you gonna be hurting then."

The idea that God had to leave clues in obscure language with a people that have been dead for thousands and thousands of years for folk today or even in our future is just plain silly. God is perfectly capable of reaching folk today in our own media and those living in the future in theirs.



Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 136 by bridgebuilder, posted 03-31-2012 6:53 PM bridgebuilder has responded

Replies to this message:
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bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2630 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 138 of 255 (657901)
04-01-2012 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
03-31-2012 6:44 PM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
jar writes:

Or the authors and marketers of the new religion tried to shoehorn older material into the new mythos called Christianity

Perhaps. It is either that or it is genuine. I used to read the posts between the Jews for Judaism and their nemesis, the Jews for Jesus, websites debating this very point, though it has been a long time so I don't know if they are still at it. Both had compelling arguments for their respective sides.

Edited by bridgebuilder, : No reason given.


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bridgebuilder
Member (Idle past 2630 days)
Posts: 47
Joined: 03-26-2012


Message 139 of 255 (658637)
04-07-2012 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
03-31-2012 7:06 PM


Re: bottom line
Catholic Scientist writes:

...The idea that God had to leave clues in obscure language with a people that have been dead for thousands and thousands of years for folk today or even in our future is just plain silly. God is perfectly capable of reaching folk today in our own media and those living in the future in theirs.

I disagree that it is silly because God would reveal the 'end-game' to his closest servants and instruct them to write it and make records for future generations that 'have ears to hear' the messages.

I do agree that God is very capable of reaching folks today. According to the bible, God speaks through prophets. So knowing God's words for modern times would necessitate a search for one. The problem arises when separating the false prophets from a true one. However, if the bible is used as an example, history shows that the general populace does not listen to the prophet until it is too late.


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jar
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Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 140 of 255 (658641)
04-07-2012 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by bridgebuilder
04-07-2012 3:02 PM


Re: bottom line
I disagree that it is silly because God would reveal the 'end-game' to his closest servants and instruct them to write it and make records for future generations that 'have ears to hear' the messages.

Why? To what possible purpose? What in the world is a message only available to "those who have ears to hear" worth?

And the Bible is not a Prophet, just a book containing stories selected by men, written by men, edited by men, redacted by men, translated by men.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Thugpreacha
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
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Message 141 of 255 (658740)
04-09-2012 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
04-07-2012 4:33 PM


Re: bottom line
jar writes:

What in the world is a message only available to "those who have ears to hear" worth?

This too would make a good sub topic in a Great Debate.

Assuming that the Biblical books were all written by men and not from some giant hand from the sky, our next question would be whether these men were inspired from an external (or even internal) source and that the content written was without error (if that is possible...I mean, who would determine what the error was?)

I suppose my question is this: What does "it mean to have ears to hear?


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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 142 of 255 (659341)
04-15-2012 10:09 AM


Bump for foreveryoung, Buz and Dawn Bertot
Dear Dawn Bertot, forveryoung and of course, once again, Buz.

If you think that there are Old Testament prophecies of Jesus, here is your chance to cite chapter and verse so that we can take at look at them.

So far we have already looked at Isaiah 52:13-14 in Message 1...

Micah 5:2 in Message 5...

Isaiah 7:14 in Message 7...

Daniel 9:25 in Message 13...

Genesis 49:10 in Message 18...

Zechariah 9:9 in Message 19...

Jeremiah 23:5 in Message 57...

and none have stood up to examination as referring to Jesus.

If you wish us to examine some other Old Testament passage you believe is a prophecy of Jesus, simply give us chapter and verse and we can take a look at it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
ramoss
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Posts: 3119
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 143 of 255 (659508)
04-16-2012 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by bridgebuilder
03-31-2012 11:25 AM


Re: Response to the 1st post re: Isaiah
Yet, the Jewish people disagree, and say accept what the Fourth servant song says the servant is... (directly, not using out of context quotes), and that is the suffering servant is the nation of Israel.

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ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2591 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 144 of 255 (662600)
05-17-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-28-2010 1:16 PM


As you can see, What Isaiah is talking about is Jerusalem, and his audience is Judah, and it is the subject of Judah's future that is the big question.

YES YOU ARE RIGHT IT IS TALKING OF jUDAH AND THE jEWS, GODS PEOPLE.

The period was when Judah sided with Assyria and Syria in their conquest of Israel and Samaria and acted as an ally and almost vassal state. Isaiah was speaking encouraging Judah to change allegiance and oppose Assyria by an alliance with Egypt.

Yes. But it was also talking about the near and distant future of the Jews. Was they not captive in foreighn lands and peoples? Did they not have a land? Have they not been purged as no other nation still standing then and today?

So that is the setting.

Next, look to see if there is anything in the two verses that is really unique and so would be supported by Jesus or imply that Isaiah was even thinking of Jesus?

I THIS CHAPTER HE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT JESUS SPECIFICALLY BUT ABOUT THE ENTIRE JEWISH NATION.

Well, not that I can see.

TRUE.NEITHER CAN I.

Let's look at ICDESIGN's claimed support of fulfillment?

i DO NOT SEE WHERE ANY FULFILLMENT OF JESUS? I DO SEE FULFILLMENT AND FULFILLMENT OF THE JEWS, WAS THEY NOT HEAVILY PUNISHED AND SCATTERED ACCROSS THE LAND AND PEOPLE. THEY WOULD NOT BE THEMSELVES AGAIN. THEY WOULD VIEWED AS NOT MEN. IS THIS NOT BEEN THE CASE? HAS NOT THE JEWS HAVE NO LAND FOR OVER 1900 YEARS? DID THEY NOT CAPTURE IT WITHOUT MONEY? DID THEY NOT SUFFER THE HOLOCAUST BECAUSE THEY WERE VIEWED AS NOT BEING MEN AND EQUAL? DIDNT THEY BY A ACT OF KINDNESS RECIEVE THIER LAND AGAIN? THIS BEING AGAINST THE NATURAL LAW. THEY WON THIER LAND BY BLOOD AND THIEFT. THEY FOUGHT. UN TOOK. I DONT SEE HOW WHAT ISIAH SPOKE IS NOT FULFILLED NOT ONLY IN ACIENT TIMES BUT AGAIN TODAY. ONLY IF ISRAEL IS TOOK AGAIN CAN IT NOT BE FULFILLED AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THIER COUNTRY AND ARE PROSPERING IT IS FULFILLED.

Edited by ScottyDouglas, : No reason given.


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ScottyDouglas
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Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 145 of 255 (662602)
05-17-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
11-29-2010 1:02 PM


Re: Micah 5:2
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[1] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

A RULER WILL COME FROM BETHLEHEM! HE WILL RULE OVER ISRAEL. THIS IS THE FULFILLED PART, JESUS WAS BORN IN BETHLEHEM.

If you look at Micah 5 (likely not even written by Micah) it is absolutely dealing with contemporary issues, looking for the Nation of Judah to stand up in support of the Nation of Israel against a specific threat at a specific time in history.

mICAH WAS TRYING TO INSPIRE THE PEOPLE OF THAT DAY NO DOUBT. BUT IT WAS ALSO THAT AND THE INSPIRATION TO MICAH WAS FROM GOD AND HE INVISIONED THE FUTURE WHEN JESUS COMES. HE IS THE FUTURE KING OF THE JEWS WHEN HE RETURNS AND WILL RULE FROM ONE END OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER. IT PROCLAIMED HE WAS FROM JUDAH BORN IN BETHLEHEM.

So now let's look at the alleged fulfillment.

Nothing in that about a ruler and certainly nothing about the issue that Micah was addressing.

Once again, all that this prophecy seems to entail is taking stuff out of context and trying to shoehorn it into the Jesus mythos.

JESUS IS THE RULER BUT HE MUST BE SACRIFICED. WHEN HE RETURNS HE WILL BE KING. HE IS NOW BUT IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 146 of 255 (662603)
05-17-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Micah 5:2
Jesus never ruled over Israel, not over the Nation, not over the People.

Learn to use quote boxes, punctuation and capitalization if you expect anyone to take you seriously.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2591 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 147 of 255 (662604)
05-17-2012 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
11-29-2010 10:15 PM


Re: Genesis 49:10
Wow, it seems it is about the Twelve Tribes, where they will be located and what their characteristics will be.

And the support that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus is?

A contrived genealogy.

iT IS A GENEOLOGY.

Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons will bow down to you.
9 You are a lion’s cub, Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk.

tHIS IS A DESCRIPTION OF THE KING OF JUDAH. KING OF THE JEWS. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT JESUS WAS CALLED THE LION OF JUDAH AN KING OF THE JEWS.
REV 5:5 LION OF JUDAH
MAT.MARK,LUKE,JOHN ALL CALL JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 148 of 255 (662605)
05-17-2012 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 1:00 PM


Re: Genesis 49:10
That is called quote mining, when an author takes a quote out of context and applies it to an unrelated subject.

Learn to use quote boxes, punctuation and capitalization if you expect anyone to take you seriously.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 147 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:00 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

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ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2591 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 149 of 255 (662607)
05-17-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
11-30-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

KINDA AT END TALKING ABOUT IT. ILL TAKE THE OLD TESTAMENT VERSE AND SHOE NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT.OK.TY.

1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

IF IT TOOK PLACE IF THEY WAS TRYING TO LOOK TO FULFILL PROPHECY THEN THEY WOULD ACTUALLY DO IT, RIGHT?
IF THEY DID THEY FULFILL PROPHECY.POINT BLANK.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 150 of 255 (662608)
05-17-2012 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 1:07 PM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
But Jesus never ruled Israel.

And a contrived fulfillment is commonly known as a Con job.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:07 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

Replies to this message:
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ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 2591 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 151 of 255 (662609)
05-17-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
05-17-2012 1:01 PM


Re: Genesis 49:10
YOU CAN TAKE SERIOUS OR NOT I ALREADY SEE THAT YOU DO NOT TAKE THE WORD SERIOUSLY. WHO SHOULD TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. MY WORDS ARE NOT FLAWED AT THE LEAST. DO NOT GET UPSET BECAUSE YOU REFUSE THE WORD AND MISQUOTE OR MARGINALIZE THE BOOK OF GOD. NO BOOK HAS COME CLOSE TO THE CONTRIVERSY AND LEGITMATCY OF THE BIBLE. YOU MUST DISPROVE IT, WHY? BECAUSE IF YOU DO NOT YOU CAN NOT DENY IT. YOU MUST FIND THE DENIAL. BUT THERE IS NONE, SO YOU MISQUOTE AND INTERPRET. GO GET A KGV IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ANYWAY. PEOPLE TALK ABOUT ITS BEEN WRITTEN SOME MANY TIMES THEN THEY QUOTE OUT OF NEW VERSIONS.

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