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Author Topic:   The evolution of the Great Commission over time.
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 49 (572896)
08-08-2010 12:04 PM


Actually living the Great Commission is a bummer. Trying to do what Jesus charged us to do was a hard sell in his day and near impossible today. So shortly after his death the various folk trying to market the franchise started making the product more attractive, selling the sizzle instead of the steak.
That is not just a new tactic, by the time the author of John's Gospel was writing the advertising it was pretty obvious. Look at the Great Commission as found in Matthew 28:
quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
  —"Matthew 28:16-20:"
"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
Obey what I have commanded you.
If you read all of Matthew, you will find that what we are commanded to do is "try to do our best for others."
There is nothing in there about salvation, nothing in there about an afterlife, nothing in there about any benefits that the disciples would get. It is about going and doing, about feeding and clothing and seeing that folk have clean water and shelter and jobs.
By the time the advertiser came back and revised Mark adding the "Long Ending", the Great Commission had begun to change.
quote:
14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
  —"Mark 16"
Originally Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the women running away afraid, but that was a really hard sell. So at sometime someone came back and added the parts from Mark 16:10-20.
This version is much different. It now has some real benefits, salvation just for believing and getting baptized and the chance to do some really neat tricks. It is a much easier sale, all you need to do is go profess the "Good News" rather than just doing little stuff like feeding and clothing and shelter. AND it offers a real reward.
Then along came the author of John, and he makes the deal even sweeter.
quote:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
  —"John 20"
Now the doors are locked and Jesus still shows up and for the first time, the disciples are given the power to even override GOD. If they forgive sins the sins are forgiven but if they don't forgive sins then the person is damned.
Now that is real power.
This trend of marketing Christianity has continued on down until today.
You gotta admit that telling someone all they need to do is believe and get baptized is a whole lot easier to sell then telling them they gotta do for the least of these with no guarantee of reward. And you gotta admit telling folk "I have the power to damn you" is a pretty strong incentive.
So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?
suggested forum Faith & Belief

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 49 (572925)
08-08-2010 5:28 PM


Ah, Matisyahu. Nothing like a nice Jewish Reggae singer.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 49 (572929)
08-08-2010 5:48 PM


The post resurrection story and Great Commission is covered again in Luke and once again, it is entirely different than the others.
In the Luke tale the emphasis on doing work is entirely gone and the story takes place at various locations and Jesus comes off much closer to the Greek God visiting mankind tradition than the Jewish tradition in the earlier Matthew version.
Luke 24 writes:
13And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43And he took it, and did eat before them.
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48And ye are witnesses of these things.
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
And instead of feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and teaching, all that is needed is for the apostle to preach repentance and remission of sin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by iano, posted 08-08-2010 6:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 49 (572933)
08-08-2010 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
08-08-2010 5:45 PM


Re: If at first..
Well I doubt you will find the word try so that doesn't surprise me much, but I also know that reality says that all we can do is try. We are commanded to run the race, not win the race, fight the good fight, not win the good fight.
iano writes:
Given that there is a world of difference between being instructed to do something and being instructed to try your best to do something, could you give some examples of places in Matthew where you think the trying element of your idea is suggested?
If you are instructed to do something don't you think it would be a good idea to try to do your best?
BUT...none of that has anything to do with the topic which is how the post resurrection story and the Great Commission changed over time.
Perhaps the god you worship is satisfied with folk not trying to do their best.
Edited by jar, : add last line

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by iano, posted 08-08-2010 5:45 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 08-08-2010 6:20 PM jar has replied
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 09-08-2010 11:20 AM jar has replied
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 11-04-2016 5:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 49 (572936)
08-08-2010 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
08-08-2010 6:20 PM


Re: If at first..
I will admit you create a very attractive rabbit hole but while I think you have the beginnings of a great discussion of the difference between how you view Christianity and I view Christianity, it really is irrelevant to this topic.
Start a thread on the subject and I'll be glad to discuss it there.
Jesus intent is also irrelevant to this topic since what we are dealing with here is how the marketing of the story changed over time, authors and redactors.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 8 by iano, posted 08-08-2010 6:20 PM iano has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 49 (572937)
08-08-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
08-08-2010 6:35 PM


Well, the words change, the local change, there is none of the commands found in Matthew relating to doing for the least of these.
Guess what, a change in emphasis and expanded upon are changes. As I pointed out, in Matthew the Great Commission offers no perks, no benefits to the Apostles. Gradually over time the authors, editors and redactors expanded on the myth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by iano, posted 08-08-2010 6:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 3:26 PM jar has replied
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 49 (572940)
08-08-2010 8:12 PM


The final version of the story appears in Acts.
quote:
Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
In this last version yet another feature gets introduced, the issue of restoring the Kingdom of Israel.
This is very important because it is the beginning of the redefinition of the Messiah from what the term had always meant to the Jews to what evolved in Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 49 (573058)
08-09-2010 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
08-09-2010 3:26 PM


Because it is not simply "expansion (which can imply an increasing degree of revelation with additional authors)". The stories change entirely; the local, characters, content, points of emphasis all change. No where does an author or editor or redactor say, "in addition to what so and so said, we are to xyz."
The tale evolves, changes, markets different products, offers different benefits and rewards.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 3:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 3:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 49 (573071)
08-09-2010 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
08-09-2010 3:55 PM


I thought I did. From the OP...
quote:
Trying to do what Jesus charged us to do was a hard sell in his day and near impossible today. So shortly after his death the various folk trying to market the franchise started making the product more attractive, selling the sizzle instead of the steak.
That is not just a new tactic, by the time the author of John's Gospel was writing the advertising it was pretty obvious. Look at the Great Commission as found in Matthew 28:
quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
  —"Matthew 28:16-20:"
"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
Obey what I have commanded you.
If you read all of Matthew, you will find that what we are commanded to do is "try to do our best for others."
There is nothing in there about salvation, nothing in there about an afterlife, nothing in there about any benefits that the disciples would get. It is about going and doing, about feeding and clothing and seeing that folk have clean water and shelter and jobs.
By the time the advertiser came back and revised Mark adding the "Long Ending", the Great Commission had begun to change.
quote:
14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
  —"Mark 16"
Originally Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the women running away afraid, but that was a really hard sell. So at sometime someone came back and added the parts from Mark 16:10-20.
This version is much different. It now has some real benefits, salvation just for believing and getting baptized and the chance to do some really neat tricks. It is a much easier sale, all you need to do is go profess the "Good News" rather than just doing little stuff like feeding and clothing and shelter. AND it offers a real reward.
Then along came the author of John, and he makes the deal even sweeter.
quote:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
  —"John 20"
Now the doors are locked and Jesus still shows up and for the first time, the disciples are given the power to even override GOD. If they forgive sins the sins are forgiven but if they don't forgive sins then the person is damned.
Now that is real power.
This trend of marketing Christianity has continued on down until today.
You gotta admit that telling someone all they need to do is believe and get baptized is a whole lot easier to sell then telling them they gotta do for the least of these with no guarantee of reward. And you gotta admit telling folk "I have the power to damn you" is a pretty strong incentive.
So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?
As shown in the story, the tale of the Great Commission and the post resurrection period changed from tale to tale.
This is a great example of how myths grow. Each succeeding author, editor, redactor changes the details, expands the story, modifies the scope and intent to fit that author, editor or redactors desires.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 3:55 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 4:50 PM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 49 (573082)
08-09-2010 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
08-09-2010 4:50 PM


iano writes:
I understand that idea of expansion (increasing revelation) is close to the idea of evolution but since the OP is yours, then so is the problem of differentiating between the two ideas.
The question is "why did the story change?"
What does the evidence show?
There is a long history of how myths develop over time. How does that methodology compare to what is seen in the post resurrection and Great Commission story?
We know that the earliest Gospel originally didn't even mention the events after the empty tomb. There was no mention of either a post resurrection meeting between Jesus and his followers or of the Great Commission.
The next earliest account is likely Matthew. It is the first to mention that there was a post resurrection meeting or a Great Commission and the story laid out is told simply. The eleven go to Galilee where supposedly they had been told to gather and they are instructed to go make disciples, baptize and tell folk to follow Jesus commandments. When you read the rest of Matthew those commandments seem to be all about doing for others, planning ahead, using the talents given you, doing for the least of these, healing, feeding, comforting, sheltering, clothing, teaching.
There is no mention in the story of any benefits for the apostles or the disciples and the subject of sin or forgiveness or salvation simply doesn't even come up.
At some later date a redactor came back and added material to Mark's Gospel. This time the story has a bunch of added details and embellishment. They are eating when Jesus appears. Where in the first version some doubt that it is Jesus but they worship him when they see him, in this version Jesus rebukes them for not believing what others (not those that are there) had said. In this version all they need to do is preach the good news and they are promised they will have magic powers to do tricks to convince folk. They are told that anybody that believes will get saved but doubters will be damned. In this second rendition of the story there is no mention of having to wait for the Holy Ghost to give them the special powers, it says they just got up and went out.
We see additional embellishment and redirection of the story in John; more magic and woo-woo. In John they are in a locked door, hiding from the Jews but Jesus somehow gets in. He starts off by showing them his hands and side and there is no mention of the rebuke, and he breathes on them to give them the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of the snake handling or speaking in tongues and again, the power given to the folk changes. Now it is no longer even a matter of whether someone believes or not, it is totally in the hands of the disciples. They get to decide which sins are forgiven, which sins are not forgiven.
The story again changes in Luke and in Acts and is not the same even there. Times for events change, the concept of Pentecost is introduced and the relatively final version of the story appears.
This is a classic example of mythology developing over time. It is NOT simply revelation since at least three of the accounts were supposedly by folk that were there; it is an example of creative writing by individual people that change and modify the story to fit within the scope of the document they are creating, the mythology they are creating.
It is a classic example best seen today in the "Urban Myth" where over time the details change and material is added.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 18 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 4:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 6:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 49 (573097)
08-09-2010 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by iano
08-09-2010 6:12 PM


The evidence is the stories themselves. I presented what I see. The story most certainly did change, that is a given. I included the text of the five related versions and each one is different.
If you wish to present a case for "expanded revelation" whatever that is, then please do so. This is a thread where you can present the support for your position.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 08-09-2010 6:12 PM iano has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 49 (573166)
08-10-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
08-10-2010 3:03 AM


Can I ask you to actually include the text that supports your assertion?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 49 (580257)
09-08-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
09-08-2010 11:20 AM


Re: If at first..
Totally lost me there.
I don't see how "who you are" even has much meaning.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 09-08-2010 11:20 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 8:47 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 31 of 49 (662831)
05-19-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
05-19-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Marketing A Franchise
There are many reasons to market a product other than just making money (although that certainly seems to be the motive behind much of Christianity today), and note what you just wrote:
Phat writes:
And why would people simply do what Jesus wanted them to do if there were no promises of any kind? It would be more profitable to go back to fishing.
Yes, most folk have a "What's in it for me" approach to Christianity, but what Jesus taught was quite different. Did he ask that question when he healed the sick, feed the hungry, comforted the sorrowful?
The changes in the Great Commission reflect just that issue; to sell "just do for others" was a tough sale.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 30 by Phat, posted 05-19-2012 11:14 AM Phat has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 49 (742717)
11-23-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-23-2014 8:47 AM


Topic Phat
The thread is not about you but rather about how the story of the Great Commission evolved over time in the Bible stories.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-23-2014 8:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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