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Author Topic:   Inconsistencies within atheistic evolution
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 115 (66297)
11-13-2003 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by grace2u
11-12-2003 11:02 PM


Grace2u:
Am I getting your argument right here:
1. There is no Logic without God.
2. Presuppose God.
3. The evidence to presuppose God is the existence of Logic.
Doesn't this sound circular to you?
Second, you must also proove that logic is universal and invariant, both of which you haven't done. Science uses logic until it is proven wrong by observation. Science says that "we are pretty sure" while you have science saying "we know absolutes."
Thirdly, this whole argument doesn't pass the PU test. I could as easily invoke the Pink Unicorn, claim she is moral and logical, and also claim that without the Pink Unicorn logic couldn't exist. The belief in the supernatural Pink Unicorn gives me the ability to call on logic because the PU is an abstract entity. You can insert any diety you want, insert the qualities you want, and out of the blue you have justification for anything you want. Presto, new metaphysical beliefs and possibly a new religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by grace2u, posted 11-12-2003 11:02 PM grace2u has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 115 (67365)
11-18-2003 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by grace2u
11-17-2003 8:45 PM


Sure. One of the characteristics of this God that is presupposed as well as evidenced is that He is an eternal entity that is the standard of reason(logic) by which we judge all reason or logic by.
We can't know if God is logical unless we have something to compare him to. The same goes for morality. We can't judge God to be just unless we already know what just is. Maybe it would be helpful to define God's logic in regards to simple geometry. Where in the Bible and God's teachings can I find the relationships between sides of a triangle in relation to the adjacent angle? Where's the logical proof? What I am trying to say is that we have to come up with our own logic in many instances without invoking God.
Because of this, a theist can at least begin to have a rational discussion about this entity or what laws this entitiy might radiate or define since a theists worldview accounts for these truths. The theist can do this while the atheist is left defending the low-ground by denying these absolute truths, when most of humanity(yes, scientists included) would clearly accept them for what rational thought says they are. Atheists then are forced into a more unreasonable position since they can not account for these self evident truths.
You are already presupposing that the diety radiates ALL truth and logic. Why would you delve further into something you already require for the existence of logic and truth. I would argue that theists are on as unreasonable ground as athiests because of their presuppositions. That is, you assume 2+2=4 because that logic comes from God. Therefore, 2+2 could equal 5 but God is making you think it is 4, you can't know because humans by themselves cannot reach any conclusion without God. The athiest says 2+2=4 because he has evidence and shared experience to back it up. As long as experiments and data hold up 2+2=4, the logic will remain.
You argue that you are not claiming self evident truths, but I have not seen anyting but that claim. Presupposing truths are the same as self-evident claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by grace2u, posted 11-17-2003 8:45 PM grace2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by grace2u, posted 11-19-2003 1:10 AM Loudmouth has not replied

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