|
Author
|
Topic: How do "novel" features evolve?
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
Message 5 of 314 (655363)
03-09-2012 6:52 PM
|
|
|
Similarly, the golden oldie of the peppered moth - they can switch between black/grey and white/grey but they can't switch to red or barber's pole stripes.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by RAZD, posted 03-09-2012 7:26 PM | | Tangle has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 10 of 314 (655415)
03-10-2012 3:48 AM
|
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
03-09-2012 7:26 PM
|
|
Re: Misunderstanding Peppered Moths Evidence
RAZD writes: Expecting the peppered moths to be about the evolution of new features is a misunderstanding of what the peppered moths are used for: evidence of natural selection.
The argument used by creationists against the peppered moth is the same as you're discussing in this thread - how 'novel' features evolve. They would say that the moth already has the genes to be light or dark so that they can be selected. So it's no big deal that they actually do get selected for when the trees change colour. If the trees in the woods all suddenly got painted red and white, the moth would be wiped out because it can't develop a red and white gene to be selected for. So in their eyes, God put the whole moth genome together and included a light and dark gene but omitted red. The moth can't produce red from nowhere. Now of course many moths have red and white colouration in their palette and it's likely our peppered moth actually does too. But that doesn't help our cause here, because if the moth already has the gene then god put it there for the purpose of surviving a red pole event - the moth did not gain the gene as a result of the event. Just saying........ Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by RAZD, posted 03-09-2012 7:26 PM | | RAZD has seen this message but not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 18 of 314 (655955)
03-15-2012 4:09 AM
|
Reply to: Message 17 by Chuck77
03-15-2012 2:30 AM
|
|
Re: Semantics
Chuck77 writes: I'll have to go look it up. You've brought up several points in your statement above that shows that you've got some interest and some, albeit partial, understanding of what the theory of evolution, is but you have a lot of misunderstandings too. Instead of looking up individual issues, why don't you start from scratch with a foundation book so that you get the basics, then move forward from there? I'm sure there are plenty of people here that could help and recommend reading material.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Chuck77, posted 03-15-2012 2:30 AM | | Chuck77 has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 20 of 314 (655968)
03-15-2012 5:28 AM
|
Reply to: Message 19 by Chuck77
03-15-2012 5:12 AM
|
|
Do any of these kinds transition/evolve into the another? Or do they stay in that kind? I'm trying to understand what you're trying to get at here but because it's based on a core misunderstanding of what evolution is and how it works it's a little tricky.... ;-) Nothing evolves into another kind of anything. (If you mean can a dog turn into a fish). Each organism travels along its own route adapting to it's changing environment as best it can. It also happens over thousands, even millions, of years - which is a concept humans have great difficulty imagining. Sometimes this results in similar solutions to common problems like flight or vision, so a bat looks a bit like a bird despite them being totally different 'kinds'. (When I say organism, I'm simplifying - evolution happens to groups of animals - breeding populations, not individuals.) Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Chuck77, posted 03-15-2012 5:12 AM | | Chuck77 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by Chuck77, posted 03-15-2012 6:00 AM | | Tangle has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 22 of 314 (655973)
03-15-2012 6:24 AM
|
Reply to: Message 21 by Chuck77
03-15-2012 6:00 AM
|
|
I'm going to let RAZD field this one, he's can better follow up from his dog and cats examples. But don't worry about being confused, these things took centuries to compile and unless you have a proper notion of the ToE it will take a while to get your head round it. Unfortunately, you're starting in the middle, not the beginning. As well as trying to understand taxonomy, you'd do well to read a basic starter on evolution generally to put it in context.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Chuck77, posted 03-15-2012 6:00 AM | | Chuck77 has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 61 of 314 (659839)
04-19-2012 6:55 AM
|
|
|
Novel features evolve in Lizards
My favourite example of evolution in big animals [most reasonable people accept evolution can happen in bacteria where it's easily demonstarted, but have difficulty imagining evolution in 'proper' animals like lions and horses] is the the Italian Wall Lizard. This creature managed to evolve new features in 25 years - incredibly really when we generally think of changes happening over thousands, sometimes millions of years.. This is from the wiki: [My bold in last sentence] Rapid evolution In 1971, ten adult P. sicula specimens from the island of Pod Kopite were transported 3.5 km east to the island of Pod Mrčaru (both Croatian islands lie in the Adriatic Sea near Lastovo), where they founded a new bottlenecked population.[3][11] The two islands have similar size, elevation, microclimate, and a general absence of terrestrial predators[11] and the P. sicula expanded for decades without human interference, even outcompeting the (now extinct[3]) local Podarcis melisellensis population.[4] Following the Yugoslav Wars, scientists returned to Pod Mrčaru and found that the lizards currently occupying Pod Mrčaru differ greatly from those on Pod Kopite. While mitochondrial DNA analyses have verified that P. sicula currently on Pod Mrčaru are genetically indistinguishable from the Pod Kopite source population,[3] the new Pod Mrčaru population of P. sicula was described, in August 2007, as having a larger average size, shorter hind limbs, lower maximal sprint speed and altered response to simulated predatory attacks compared to the original Pod Kopite population.[11] These population changes in morphology and behavior were attributed to "relaxed predation intensity" and greater protection from vegetation on Pod Mrčaru.[11] In 2008, further analysis revealed that the Pod Mrčaru population of P. sicula have significantly different head morphology (longer, wider, and taller heads) and increased bite force compared to the original Pod Kopite population.[3] This change in head shape corresponded with a shift in diet: Pod Kopite P. sicula are primarily insectivorous, but those on Pod Mrčaru eat substantially more plant matter.[3] The changes in foraging style may have contributed to a greater population density and decreased territorial behavior of the Pod Mrčaru population.[3] The most surprising[5] difference found between the two populations was the discovery, in the Pod Mrčaru lizards, of cecal valves, which slow down food passage and provide fermenting chambers, allowing commensal microorganisms to convert cellulose to nutrients digestible by the lizards.[3] Additionally, the researchers discovered that nematodes were common in the guts of Pod Mrčaru lizards, but absent from Pod Kopite P. sicula, which do not have cecal valves. The cecal valves, which occur in less than 1 percent of all known species of scaled reptiles,[5] have been described as an "evolutionary novelty, a brand new feature not present in the ancestral population and newly evolved in these lizards".[7] Italian wall lizard - Wikipedia Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 75 of 314 (659890)
04-19-2012 1:04 PM
|
Reply to: Message 69 by intellen
04-19-2012 12:28 PM
|
|
Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
intellen writes: I understand that. But are those doggy1 could not escape or just go to another place to find food to live? They had feet anyway. Are all their feet gone and could not walk especially in static environment? Please, be specific and use reality. Let us be real and be scientific so that anybody can check and test. Instead of playing around with simplified theoretical examples, why not read the real life one at Message 61. What do you think is happening there?
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 12:28 PM | | intellen has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
(2)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 82 of 314 (659900)
04-19-2012 1:37 PM
|
Reply to: Message 80 by intellen
04-19-2012 1:25 PM
|
|
Re: how populations evolve - when is it "novel"?
intellin writes: That means, evolution is not true, am I right? No, you're wrong. Oddly, 150 years of research wasn't overturned by your devastating insight.
Since if those population could evacuate and look for another place to live, then, there will be no natural selection, am I right? No nat selec, no evolution. So, nat selec is not actually doing its work in mainland or any bigger island, am I right? Wrong again. The ToE survives yet another blistering attack by an outstanding mind. Evolution does not guarantee survival. That should be obvious if you know that 99% of all species that have ever lived are now exinct. Look again at the lizards, a real life example. They out-competed the domestic lizard AND evolved. One species survived and adapted, the other died. That's life here on earth.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by intellen, posted 04-19-2012 1:25 PM | | intellen has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
Re: Evidence
foreveryoung writes: You cannot produce a tonsil from random mutation and natural selection where there was no tonsil before. The Italian Wall lizards evolved cecal valves in 30 generations. Not good enough for you? ( First mentioned in Message 61. --Admin) Edited by Admin, : Add message reference.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 206 by RAZD, posted 04-21-2012 6:24 PM | | Tangle has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 208 of 314 (660203)
04-22-2012 2:50 AM
|
Reply to: Message 206 by RAZD
04-21-2012 6:24 PM
|
|
Re: regarding the topic once again ...
RAZD writes: how do we know that it is a new feature and did not exist in the ancestral population? Because the ancestral population still exists on the first island and can be examined. I have to assume that has been done, otherwise someone will feel very silly......
and
if it is a new feature then how do we know that it evolved rather than just appeared? As in Goddidit? I don't think we can. If god wants the lizard to look as though it evolved a gut capable of digesting cellulose, I guess we're knackered. PZ Myers blogged about it a few years ago Page not found | ScienceBlogs In the follow-up posts there, there is some discussion about whether the cecal valves could have appeared due to phenotype plasticity ie. the genes for the valves already existed but were switched on by environmental factors. I don't know whether further genetic work has been done since then. Perhaps a real biologist/geneticist with access to research papers can find out? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 206 by RAZD, posted 04-21-2012 6:24 PM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 211 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2012 4:21 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
Re: Evidence
foreveryoung writes: I don't have a clue? Take your clue and shove it. I am out of here. I have had more than I can stand with you assholes . Good bye. Well foreveryoung, it appears that you want to live up to your name. Bye bye, come back when you're ready to behave like a grown-up
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 210 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2012 4:14 AM | | Tangle has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 212 of 314 (660208)
04-22-2012 4:27 AM
|
Reply to: Message 210 by RAZD
04-22-2012 4:14 AM
|
|
Re: unneccessary
RAZD writes: This is unnecessary... if it was his first offence or threat to leave; possibly. But it's far from that. I don't take offence on forums - life's too short for that, but I don't see why being called an asshole should go un-remarked.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 210 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2012 4:14 AM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 214 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2012 7:13 AM | | Tangle has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 215 of 314 (660215)
04-22-2012 8:20 AM
|
Reply to: Message 214 by RAZD
04-22-2012 7:13 AM
|
|
Re: unneccessary
RAZD writes: irrelevant, sorry in your opinion :-) In a court of law, a guilty party in sentenced only after taking into account the perps 'previous'. A single indiscretion may result in a conditional discharge, a repeat offender will not be. But we all have differing tolerance levels - mine is set a little lower than yours it seems.
Curiously, I don't have any trouble doing so, as I like to focus on the argument and ignore any extraneous comments no matter what they involve. Following the 'reward good behaviour, ignore bad' model of conditioning works well with young children at home. I'm less convinced of its efficacy on an internet forum, but I'm perfectly happy for you to pursue it ;-). Anyway, I've already spent too much time worrying about the child, I'm far more intrigued by our little lizard.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2012 7:13 AM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 216 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2012 9:21 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 217 of 314 (660265)
04-23-2012 4:36 AM
|
Reply to: Message 206 by RAZD
04-21-2012 6:24 PM
|
|
Re: regarding the topic once again ...
RAZD writes: how do we know that it is a new feature and did not exist in the ancestral population? Several comments on PZ's blog have suggested that it's more likely that the ancestral population contains a trait for cecal valves that is not 'used' whilst the lizards are mostly insectivorous but is switched on when the diet changes to mostly vegetarian. Their main objection seems to be that 30 generations is too soon for a gene mutation to become set in the population. But this seems to beg the question a bit - if the lizard can eat both, why don't they all go the mostly vegetarian way? A vegetarian diet is more stable and easier to maintain. Maybe there's a difference between the two island's food sources? I'm now tempted to zip off over to the ancestral island, blag a few breeding pairs and feed them vegetables for a few generations to see what happens. There are more questions than answers......
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 206 by RAZD, posted 04-21-2012 6:24 PM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 218 by RAZD, posted 04-23-2012 6:44 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
|
|
|
Message 311 of 314 (663064)
05-21-2012 4:52 AM
|
|
|
I think it worthy of another attempt at this one without getting sidetracked down the rabbit hole of information theory. It's a reasonable position to take to say something like "fair enough, I accept that natural selection does occur and that it can cause a population to change, but you need now to show me how the genome created those novel features because, until you do, I can say that the genome must have had them to start with." For example, the peppered moth observations show that selection for a trait can and does occur but doesn't answer the question about how the trait arose in the first place so that it could then be selected for. Let's have another go?
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
|
™ Version 4.2