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Author Topic:   AiG's Strategy: Indoctrinate and Isolate
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 6 of 79 (663621)
05-25-2012 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
05-25-2012 4:01 PM


I can never make up my mind on whether Ken Ham is seriously deluded, or whether he is a con-man, running a huge scam operation.
A common dilemma that people studying creationists have grappled with for at least 30 years. As it was presented to me, the question is are they knaves for fools?
Given the number of conversion stories that I'm sure we've all heard, obviously some of them genuinely believe. However, that's certainly not to say that none of them are hucksters.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 05-25-2012 4:01 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 05-25-2012 5:45 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 14 of 79 (663635)
05-25-2012 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
05-25-2012 5:45 PM


I didn't mean to imply that those two are mutually exclusive.
Nor did I. And, upon reflection, I find nothing inconsistent with the idea that they genuinely believe their nonsense and, at the same time, are intending to bilk other believers.
Yes, I concur with that general view. However, there is something very huckster-like in Ken Ham's style.
You know, I always got the same impression from Duane Gish.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 05-25-2012 5:45 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ReverendDG, posted 05-25-2012 8:28 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 22 of 79 (663657)
05-25-2012 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
05-25-2012 8:41 PM


There’s really nothing new about it. To maintain one’s position, to double down is no different than what evolutionists did when Darwin’s Black Box came out, is it?
Yes, it's quite different. Scientists responded to the arguments Behe made and showed why he was wrong. They didn't simply repeat the same errors over and over again.
Is it different from the move made as evolution is protected from the criticism that ID makes of evolution?
Evolution isn't protected from criticism. You might have heard of a book Michael Behe wrote, called Darwin's Black Box.
Creationism has been eliminated from public schools, but that's because it's religion, not because it criticizes evolution. And if you think that the main place that science is challenged is high school, you're sadly out of touch.
Have creationists tried to use the court system to protect something from criticism?
No, they've gone to school boards and legislatures to get something promoted in science class that is obviously not science.
Those who have gone to court have done so, not to protect the Theory of Evolution, but to keep religion out of public schools. You might notice that not one single lawsuit has been filed to keep creationism out of private schools. Why do you think that is?
They’re trying to get atheism out of the classroom — the kind that converted Libby.
No, it's science that converted Libby. If you don't want science to drive your children away from religion, then don't hold religious beliefs that science shows are wrong.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 05-25-2012 8:41 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 49 of 79 (664089)
05-28-2012 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by foreveryoung
05-28-2012 7:40 PM


I have changed my interpretation to fit evidence that is impossible to get around however.
I give you credit for having done this. There are some who would cling to their beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary no matter what. That you allowed evidence to change your beliefs is a sign of maturity and intelligence.
I would like you to at least consider the possibility that the remaining beliefs you listed are also at odds with all available scientific evidence. Since you have apparently already experienced the phenomenon of having a belief proven wrong, this possibility isn't foreign to you. The fact that it has happened once must make you realize that it might happen again.
What is it that distinguishes what you have already rejected from the remaining beliefs that you hold on to? You don't go into any detail about the changes that you made and I'm curious about how that process occurred and the reasoning that took you through the process.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by foreveryoung, posted 05-28-2012 7:40 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by foreveryoung, posted 05-28-2012 11:01 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 58 of 79 (664182)
05-29-2012 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by foreveryoung
05-28-2012 11:01 PM


The geological timing of the flood is one of the things that got changed quite a bit for me. I kept pushing it back further and further because the evidence showed the impossibility of it for the specified time periods.
And what would be your response if the evidence showed the impossibility of it having happened at all?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by foreveryoung, posted 05-28-2012 11:01 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-03-2018 10:33 AM subbie has not replied

  
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