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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 411 of 453 (664054)
05-28-2012 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:33 PM


Hmm, it's not showing all the Hebrew words for some reason, some kind of problem, probably because of the tags. I will post it again here and edit it in.
Ge 6:14 Make (`asah) thee an ark (tebah) of gopher (gopher) wood (`ets); rooms (qen) shalt thou make (`asah) in ('eth) the ark (tebah), and shalt pitch (kaphar) it within (bayith) and without (chuwts) with pitch (kopher).
Ge 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make (`asah) it of: The length ('orek) of the ark (tebah) shall be three (shalowsh) hundred (me'ah) cubits ('ammah), the breadth (rochab) of it fifty (chamishshiym) cubits ('ammah), and the height (qowmah) of it thirty (shelowshiym) cubits ('ammah).
Ge 6:16 A window (tsohar) shalt thou make (`asah) to the ark (tebah), and in a cubit ('ammah) shalt thou finish (kalah) it above (ma`al); and the door (pethach) of the ark (tebah) shalt thou set (suwm) in the side thereof (tsad); with lower (tachtiy), second (sheniy), and third (sheliyshiy) stories shalt thou make (`asah) it.
Ge 6:18 But with thee will I establish (quwm) my covenant (beriyth); and thou shalt come (bow') into ('el) the ark (tebah), thou ('attah), and thy sons (ben), and thy wife ('ishshah), and thy sons (ben)' wives ('ishshah) with thee.
Ge 6:19 And of every living thing (chay) of all flesh (basar), two (shenayim) of every sort shalt thou bring (bow') into the ark (tebah), to keep them alive (chayah) with thee; they shall be male (zakar) and female (neqebah).
Ge 7:1 And the LORD (Yehovah) said ('amar) unto Noah (Noach), Come (bow') thou and all thy house (bayith) into the ark (tebah); for thee have I seen (ra'ah) righteous (tsaddiyq) before me (paniym) in this (zeh) generation (dowr).
Ge 7:7 And Noah (Noach) went in (bow'), and his sons (ben), and his wife ('ishshah), and his sons (ben)' wives ('ishshah) with him, into the ark (tebah), because of (paniym) the waters (mayim) of the flood (mabbuwl).
Ge 7:9 There went in (bow') two (shenayim) and two (shenayim) unto Noah (Noach) into the ark (tebah), the male (zakar) and the female (neqebah), as ('aher) God ('elohiym) had commanded (tsavah) Noah (Noach).
Ge 7:13 In the selfsame (`etsem) day (yowm) entered (bow') Noah (Noach), and Shem (Shem), and Ham (Cham), and Japheth (Yepheth), the sons (ben) of Noah (Noach), and Noah's (Noach) wife ('ishshah), and the three (shalowsh) wives ('ishshah) of his sons (ben) with them, into the ark (tebah);
Ge 7:15 And they went in (bow') unto Noah (Noach) into the ark (tebah), two (shenayim) and two (shenayim) of all flesh (basar), wherein ('aher) is the breath (ruwach) of life (chay).
Ge 7:17 And the flood (mabbuwl) was forty ('arba`iym) days (yowm) upon the earth ('erets); and the waters (mayim) increased (rabah), and bare up (nasa') the ark (tebah), and it was lift up (ruwm) above the earth ('erets).
Ge 7:18 And the waters (mayim) prevailed (gabar), and were increased (rabah) greatly (me`od) upon the earth ('erets); and the ark (tebah) went (yalak) upon the face (paniym) of the waters (mayim).
Ge 7:23 And every living substance (yequwm) was destroyed (machah) which was upon the face (paniym) of the ground ('adamah), both man ('adam), and cattle (behemah), and the creeping things (remes), and the fowl (`owph) of the heaven (shamayim); and they were destroyed (machah) from the earth ('erets): and Noah (Noach) only ('ak) remained (sha'ar) alive, and they that ('aher) were with him in the ark (tebah).
Ge 8:1 And God ('elohiym) remembered (zakar) Noah (Noach), and every living thing (chay), and all the cattle (behemah) that was with him in the ark (tebah): and God ('elohiym) made (`abar) a wind (ruwach) to pass (`abar) over (`al) the earth ('erets), and the waters (mayim) asswaged (shakak);
Ge 8:4 And the ark (tebah) rested (nuwach) in the seventh (shebiy`iy) month (chodesh), on the seventeenth (`asar) (sheba`) day (yowm) of the month (chodesh), upon the mountains (har) of Ararat ('Ararat).
Ge 8:6 And it came to pass at the end (qets) of forty ('arba`iym) days (yowm), that Noah (Noach) opened (pathach) the window (challown) of the ark (tebah) which he had made (`asah):
Ge 8:9 But the dove (yownah) found (matsa') no rest (manowach) for the sole (kaph) of her foot (regel), and she returned (shuwb) unto him into the ark (tebah), for the waters (mayim) were on the face (paniym) of the whole earth ('erets): then he put forth (shalach) his hand (yad), and took her (laqach), and pulled her in (bow') unto him into the ark (tebah).
Ge 8:10 And he stayed (chuwl) yet other ('acher) seven (sheba`) days (yowm); and again (yacaph) he sent forth (shalach) the dove (yownah) out of the ark (tebah);
Ge 8:13 And it came to pass in the six (shesh) hundredth (me'ah) and first year (shaneh (in pl. only),), in the first (ri'shown) month, the first ('echad) day of the month (chodesh), the waters (mayim) were dried up (charab) from off the earth ('erets): and Noah (Noach) removed (cuwr) the covering (mikceh) of the ark (tebah), and looked (ra'ah), and, behold, the face (paniym) of the ground ('adamah) was dry (charab).
Ge 8:16 Go forth (yatsa') of the ark (tebah), thou, and thy wife ('ishshah), and thy sons (ben), and thy sons (ben)' wives ('ishshah) with thee.
Ge 8:19 Every beast (chay), every creeping thing (remes), and every fowl (`owph), and whatsoever (kol) creepeth (ramas) upon the earth ('erets), after their kinds (mishpachah), went forth (yatsa') out of the ark (tebah).
Ge 9:10 And with every living (chay) creature (nephesh) that is with you, of the fowl (`owph), of the cattle (behemah), and of every beast (chay) of the earth ('erets) with you; from all that go out (yatsa') of the ark (tebah), to every beast (chay) of the earth ('erets).
Ge 9:18 And the sons (ben) of Noah (Noach), that went forth (yatsa') of the ark (tebah), were Shem (Shem), and Ham (Cham), and Japheth (Yepheth): and Ham (Cham) (huw') is the father ('ab) of Canaan (Kena`an).
Ex 2:3 And when she could (yakol) not longer (`owd) hide (tsaphan) him, she took (laqach) for him an ark (tebah) of bulrushes (gome'), and daubed (chamar) it with slime (chemar) and with pitch (zepheth), and put (suwm) the child (yeled) therein; and she laid (suwm) it in the flags (cuwph) by the river's (ye`or) brink (saphah).
Ex 2:5 And the daughter (bath) of Pharaoh (Par`oh) came down (yarad) to wash (rachats) herself at the river (ye`or); and her maidens (na`arah) walked (halak) along by the river's (ye`or) side (yad); and when she saw (ra'ah) the ark (tebah) among (tavek) the flags (cuwph), she sent (shalach) her maid ('amah) to fetch (laqach) it.
Alright, that should work. I'll delete the part of the last post that messed up and didn't post all the Hebrew words.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : bolding word ark for easier readability

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 8:33 PM Jzyehoshua has replied

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 412 of 453 (664056)
05-28-2012 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:36 PM


Anyway, just from taking a quick look at the list, some observations:
* In Exodus 2:3 where the word is used, it says the Ark Moses was in was made of bulrushes. So I don't think you could make reeds or bulrushes into a box shape easily. Probably was something of a basket or even spherical, but you'd think it had to be rounded somehow.
* It makes it really tough to tell what it was like because outside of the Flood narrative in Genesis chapters 6-9 it's only used twice in the Bible. It had to have been a shape capable of being made readily by an Israelite wife scared her child would be killed, but perhaps unusual enough that it wasn't mentioned much in the Bible.

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Replies to this message:
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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 414 of 453 (664059)
05-28-2012 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by jar
05-28-2012 8:51 PM


Well, theories could be proposed for how it COULD float, which is basically all Answers in Genesis did, theorize on ways a design could work given the minimal information we know. But really, there's not really any way to tell for sure what the Ark's shape was exactly, at least, not that I know of anyway.

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 415 of 453 (664062)
05-28-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:54 PM


We basically know some basic dimensions (300 x 50 x 30 cubits) and that it was 3 stories with multiple rooms. It had a window and a door in the side. (Genesis 6:14-16) And as mentioned it was likely somewhat spherical given that Arks can be made out of bulrushes. Beyond that, just basically guesswork - your guess is as good as mine.
Also, Cubits were based on forearm measurements. The bigger the guy, the bigger the Cubit. So if pre-Flood humans were bigger the Ark could be a bit bigger than is usually calculated, if smaller, than it could be a smaller Ark.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.

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 Message 414 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 8:54 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 417 of 453 (664072)
05-28-2012 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by Coyote
05-28-2012 9:13 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
Still, some of the stuff the ancient world produced like the Easter Island statues and Stonehenge we still don't have an explanation for either. We don't really know what exactly their capabilities or ingenuity levels were like. Maybe the lower deck really was a "poop deck" - literally. But I don't know that I'd write this off as an impossibility.
16,000 animals may not have been needed given the rapid microevolutionary rates that we see today, and would allow them to rapidly branch out into the varieties we see today.
Biological evolution - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : fixed wrong link

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 423 of 453 (664084)
05-28-2012 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by fearandloathing
05-28-2012 9:45 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
What about all the plants the flood destroyed. Where did the olive branch come from? Even if Noah carried seed and seedlings it would still be a problem feeding all the animals until the first harvest. Of course Ham and AiG can always play the supernatural card.
Well, there are three things to consider.
(1) Noah was commanded to take all food that could be eaten as provisions, thus presumably including seeds. (Genesis 6:21)
(2) Noah brought 7 of each clean animal on board the Ark, likely for a reason. (Genesis 7:2-3) Clean vs. Unclean was a way of determining which animals were good for food, thus the animals themselves were provisions - faster breeding ones like rabbits may have provided food for other animals. (Leviticus 11:47)
(3) Some seeds could survive 150 days to re-germinate. The rain itself only lasted 40 days (Genesis 7:12). The waters themselves lasted 150 days before settling to where the Ark could rest. (Genesis 8:3-4)

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 427 of 453 (664088)
05-28-2012 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Panda
05-28-2012 9:58 PM


Re: Not enough room.
A single cow eats ~15000 lbs of hay a year.
This would require 1000 cubic feet to store all that hay.
A single cow also drinks ~5000 gallons of water per year.
That would require 900 cubic feet to store all that water.
And that is just one cow.
That is a really good point, I have to admit. I suppose you could end up with some pretty skinny cows that had to go on diets by the end, but otherwise, I'm not sure there's much explanation that wouldn't offend people who dislike Jesus' "loaves and fish" miracles. Don't know how that'd be explained without something supernatural.

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 782 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 431 of 453 (664113)
05-29-2012 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Panda
05-28-2012 10:28 PM


Re: Not enough room.
Then it makes no sense for you to even try and find scientific support for your beliefs.
Because when you hit an insurmountable problem you simply hand-wave it away with "god-did-it-with-magic" - a "deus ex machina", if you will.
It means I've encountered one question I don't have an answer for. Just because Evolutionists discard their theory of Evolution every time they encounter a problem with it they can't explain, doesn't mean I have to abandon my beliefs just because I've found one problem I can't yet explain.
My point is, there are puzzles scientists can't explain on occasion. They just assume they need to keep looking. I never seem to see them discard Evolutionary Theory or other theories when this occurs.
Likewise, I have found a single potentially difficult problem. I am not so confident in my intelligence to think I've fully understood the issue to consider all alternatives. Could it be a miracle? Yes. Could it be some other physical explanation I haven't considered? Yes. Could it be what AIG was saying, some sort of trap door setup allowing waste to fall down to a lower floor? I suppose. Maybe there was some kind of rainwater catcher for the water, or the water outside the Ark was more okay to drink, mixed as it was with water worldwide. Maybe salination wasn't as extreme as it is today.
Obviously there are some issues here I don't really have a ready explanation for. I've been convinced enough in the Bible in the past that I still give it the benefit of the doubt since it's not a clear contradiction and unlike evolutionists, I do consider the supernatural possible based on my own experience. But I'm not going to throw out my beliefs because of a single unexplained dilemma any more than scientists throw out their theories over unexplained mysteries.

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