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Author Topic:   Is America a Christian Nation?
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 183 of 206 (664103)
05-29-2012 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2012 12:00 AM


Re: and then there is Roger Williams ...
Religious freedom doesn't entail freedom to play dog-in-the-manger. A flat-Earth sect shouldn't stop state schools from buying globes, or stop the Navy from buying and using navigation systems based on spherical geometry. Nor does the existence of Jehovah's Witnesses prevent them from spending money on blood transfusions, nor the existence of Scientologists prevent them from offering psychiatric treatment to soldiers with PTSD. The existence of white supremacist churches doesn't stop people from teaching about black role models nor render Martin Luther King Day unconstitutional. And if a cult arose that claimed that two twos were five, schools would not have to abandon teaching the multiplication table.
None of which appears similar to what I mentioned. Unlike with claims of a flat earth, it's not as easy to prove macroevolution as looking at the horizon, or taking a plane trip around the world. Abortion is very obviously murder in certain cases - unlike blood transfusions - such as those that occur after the 21st week (some 40,000 abortions every year), the same time that children can be born prematurely and live. Nor is the gay rights movement similar to the civil rights movement since they have the right to vote already and already have the same rights as everyone else - what they want is to change the meaning of what rights are.
You are discussing cults and minorities, but in this case, 66% of Americans say Young Earth Creationism is definitely true or probably true, 59% support outlawing abortion in any or most circumstances, and 48% oppose same-sex marriage.
Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design | Gallup Historical Trends
Abortion | Gallup Historical Trends
Gay and Lesbian Rights | Gallup Historical Trends

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 12:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 12:59 AM Jzyehoshua has replied

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 186 of 206 (664107)
05-29-2012 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2012 12:39 AM


Re: Yes, Virginia, There Is A Statute For Religious Freedom
It is --- they're not allowed to use taxpayers' money to teach their religious doctrines either. Of course, they don't want to.
I think you're playing about a bit with words like "belief" and "opinion" here. Jefferson clearly thought that one shouldn't be compelled to pay for a religion one does not believe in. This is different from saying that one should not be compelled to pay for a government program that one does not believe in. In a democracy, such things are going to happen. For example, people who opposed the war with Iraq still had to pay for it. I must have missed the clamor of fundamentalists explaining that this contravened the spirit of the Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom --- or if they made any mention of it, it must have been drowned out by the din they made rattling their sabres.
Except that Jefferson specifically said "opinions and modes of thinkings" were being used to "[assume] dominion over the faith of others". This was used to maintain false religions over the world and for all time. He said that it was wrong to force others to contribute money for opinions they don't believe.
quote:
That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;
That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;
By that definition, if opinions and modes of thinking imposed on others include Evolution, Homosexuality, and Abortion, they might as well be for all intents and purposes religions. They are opinions and modes of thinking imposed on the faith of others.
As for conservatives and the Virginia Statute, I don't think I've met anyone before who knew about the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom that I hadn't already told. I came across it and have been mentioning it myself.
I am a fundamentalist, and I've been opposing the Iraq War since 2004. I say so on my CreationWiki page, and I can prove it per my 2004 posting history at RenewAmerica's forums. I was criticizing both Bush and Obama at the time and my posting history proves it, as well as the fact that I voted for Michael Peroutka of the Constitution Party. I've never voted anything but 3rd party in a presidential general election.
User:Jzyehoshua - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
Minuteman Message Board • Information

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 12:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 1:06 AM Jzyehoshua has replied

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 189 of 206 (664111)
05-29-2012 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2012 12:59 AM


No need to distinguish organizations
I don't think there's a need to recognize any church or organization in general by government. We need to avoid letting any organization, be it religious, scientific, or political, have major influence in government decision-making.
The solution I would like is for all to be able to voice their religious, political, and scientific opinions in the sphere of politics and government regardless so long as these don't call for silencing inalienable liberties like right to life, right to vote, or right to free speech of other demographics.
We should simply put issues like abortion or homosexuality or evolution to a vote and let the people decide. There's no need to distinguish this group or that group. Just let it be an up-or-down majority vote. Let all people voice their opinions on the issues and trust the most persuasive, reasonable arguments will be adopted by the majority, simple as that.
While an organization can usurp government as a dictatorship, because it involves power in the hands of a few, it is far more difficult to do so with a direct democracy where organizations are not given this power but all may vote on an issue. What I'd like to see is the top political issues put on the ballot and have people vote on how to decide them each election. Same with a few of the top bills. The system would be tough to set up but could definitely be done if people can vote constantly on something as trivial as American Idol.
We shouldn't be upholding organizations through government at all. But we are of necessity going to have to adopt the VIEWS of organizations. Either Pro-Life or Pro-Choice will be the law, e.g. Or at least somewhere on the scale which will probably be supported by one side and not the other. In other words, we can have the issues of Evolution or Abortion or Marriage voted on by the people without instituting a specific organization in law, because organizations have nothing to do with this, but rather the will of the people themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 12:59 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 9:05 AM Jzyehoshua has not replied
 Message 196 by Artemis Entreri, posted 05-29-2012 11:44 AM Jzyehoshua has not replied
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2012 9:51 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 190 of 206 (664112)
05-29-2012 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2012 1:06 AM


Re: Yes, Virginia, There Is A Statute For Religious Freedom
That hardly seems to mean anything. How does someone impose a homosexual opinion on your faith?
I already gave the example of having homosexual role models taught to grade schoolers. Using one's own public tax dollars to teach that homosexuality is right to one's children would seem to fit that description. Another example would be the homosexual hate crimes laws that are allowing pastors to be sued for not performing gay weddings, photographers for not photographing gay weddings, and doctors for not performing in vitro fertilization on lesbian couples. Those are all cases of infringing on the religious freedoms of others.
So ... do you deserve a tax rebate?
I think our tax code is way too complicated and needs to be simplified. We should just figure out what the 10-15 most effective Income Tax questions are for determining cumulative national wealth, adopt those, and toss the rest. I'm not sure we even need to ask marriage status for tax purposes. Concerning taxes on business, I'd like to see tax rebates for companies that hire more U.S. workers in relation to company earnings so companies are incentivized to hire U.S. workers maximally rather than replacing them with overseas workers, illegal immigrants, or automation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 1:06 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2012 9:11 AM Jzyehoshua has not replied
 Message 197 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2012 2:15 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied
 Message 198 by jar, posted 05-29-2012 2:25 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

  
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