Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

How do we tackle the life-ruining issues of racial identity?

And you've suggested surgery as a possible answer. I'm wondering why brain surgery wouldn't be the answer to a brain problem. If you're suggesting genital surgery as an answer to a gential problem, then I'm asking you (again) to show that the problem is genital in origin.

It isn't politically correct to say, "I'm a white man trapped in a black man's body." Are you seriously suggesting that there are no black people who wish they were white? Have you never heard of black people trying to "pass" as white? Brain differences between the sexes aren't relevant. Can you show that there are brain differences between men who want to be women and men who want to be men? Can you show that there are brain simiarities between men who want to be women and women who were born women?

That isn't the question. The question is: If transgenderism is caused by brain structure, why wouldn't you look for a brain tweak as the "cure"? We're not talking about changing the whole brain, just the part that's causing the problem.

I've never suggested that there were physiological reasons for black people wanting to pass as white. I've been saying that the reasons are largely social. Remember?So, if transgenderism is caused by brain structure, why not brain surgery instead of genital surgery to "fix" it? And if cosmetic surgery is the answer to genital dissatisfaction why isn't it the answer to racial dissatisfaction?In Message 196
As I've said before, we're not talking about changing the whole brain, just one little bit. Changing a flat tire on a Subaru doesn't stop it from being a Subaru. And putting a Cadillac medallion on it doesn't make it a Cadillac either.

"Seems to be" is a pretty thin excuse for questioning the comparison. When you can show that physiological differences are the predominant cause of transgenderism and when you can show that genital surgery is a reliable cure for the distress of transgenderism, it may be time to re-evaluate the comparison. Meanwhile, you could try giving an honest answer to the question: Why not use surgery to "correct" an incorectly assigned race? I think it makes sense to have eye surgery to correct eye problems and knee surgery to correct knee problems.

That question is for the people who claim that transgenderism has a physiological cause. So far, we've seen little evidence that brain physiology causes transgender problems or that genital surgery cures them. I'm not squeamish about genital mutilation; I'm just calling it what it is. It seems to me that the ones who find it distasteful are the ones who are looking for a politically correct euphemism.

I'm the one who's suggesting that if the eye is broken, fix the eye and if the knee is broken, fix the knee; if the genitals ain't broken, don't fix 'em. It's cosmetic. So is surgically altering your eyes to make them appear Chinese. It doesn't make you Chinese. And I've never suggested that it was.Mutilation is an alteration of a body part. It covers everything from piercing an earlobe to amputating a leg. You're just special pleading for one example.

In other words, you'll run away from a question you can't answer.Please explain to us what the difference is between the two situations. What is fundamentally different between being distressed by male genitals and being distressed by round eyes? Be specific. If you want to claim that one has a physiological cause and the other doesn't, then you need to show that the cause of the distress is physiological.Stop handwaving and discuss the issue honestly. If you can show that the problem is genital and that genital surgery corrects it, then I'm all for it. But so far we've seen that genital surgery isn't a very effective cure and we've seen you run like the wind from any discussion of the cause.

We aren't talking about the difference between men and women. We're talking about the difference between men who want to be women and men who are content to be men (or women who want to be men and women who are content to be women).

Your own quote - the part you bolded - doesn't say that:

quote:

---

Surprisingly, in each transsexual person's brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females.

---

Hafway between, which is what I might have guessed. Which is exactly what I've been saying. I think I've said several times that the identity is not determined by the body. That's exactly why I don't believe in altering the body. Instead of molding the body to fit a stereotypical identity, just live your identity. Yes, the line is fine and fuzzy too. Have you learned what mutilation is yet? It includes tattooing, which some consider an improvement and some don't. Or... not to think of it as a "mismatch" at all and just be who you are. I've said no such thing. I've said that a surgical approach to the problem would attack the problem at the source of the problem. You're suggesting fixing a vision problem with knee surgery because eye surgery is "too hard". I'm saying that moving the site of the surgery negates the whole pretext of a physiological cause. As I've said before, there's no need to stigmatize mental illness.

There appears to be a spectrum of brain structure in which males tend to be clustered at one end and females tend to be clustered at the other end. We're talking about people who are somewhere in the middle. If there was a clear dichotomy, we'd be back to the old question of superiority and inferiority.

Welcome to EvC. One of the things we stress here is that if you claim a cause-and-effect relationship, you have to propose a mechanism by which the supposed cause produces the effect. Otherwise, all you have is a correlation. Until you can show how those features of brain physiology cause transgenderism, you can't legitimately conclude a physiological cause and you can't legitimately hand-wave away the comparisons with similar situations.So, stop special pleading for transgenderism and approach the topic honestly. What's the difference between a man who wants a healthy leg amputated and a man who wants a healthy penis amputated? What's the difference between a man who "feels" like a woman and a man who "feels" Chinese? Clearly you're not following my argument. My argument is that your logic points to brain surgery.

Nobody loves transsexuals more than I do.

That's why I objected to the term "corrective" surgery. False dichotomy.